New War In Israel / Gaza

[Karmadhi]

26 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

The responsibility is mutual and intertwined to a gordian knot between the sides. Every side need to work on his own.

Fair. Cannot disagree with that. Palestine definetly needs leadership better than Hamas. Leadership conductive to peace. So does Israel.

[hundreth]

22 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Zionism is that it glorifies hardcore Judaism which is a toxic genocidal racist ideology. No issue with moderate Jews but Judaism unlike Christiniaty and Islam is fundamentally racist and genocidal.

Since it was the first religion, it is the least developed and Christinity and Islam which came after corrected a lot of its flaws.

For example Christianity says "All are equal before God", in Judaism basically Jews are superior and the rest should serve them (Racism).

In Islam it is not allowed to kill women and childreen, in Judaism genocide is  embraced when  it comes to protecting Jews (Seed of Amalek).

This is the issue with Zionism, it builds on this ideology/religion which can cause atrocities and apartheid (like it is happening currently).

Note: No issues with moderate Jews. I think most Israelis are secular Jews, here I am talking about hardcore religious people.

This information I got from recently reading Yuvan noah harari s work.

Way to be blatantly antisemitic, ignorant and delusional. 

If you're going to criticize the dark sides of religions, critique all of them on the same grounds. To state that Judaism specifically is x, y, z while the others are not is wild... and just shows your underlying framework of hate.

[Karmadhi]

@hundreth Other religions are more evolved since they came later. Also most of the issues with them come from bad practice not the religion being inherently racist.

You can argue Islam is inherently mysogonistic by today standards

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

14 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

   Sure, but isn't the key difference in terms of morality and other lines of development, is the government and rulership of Israel compared to the government and rulership of local NYC government, up to the USA's government? It's clearly from Israel a bit more right wing than NYC or USA, at least with Zionism it's far more right wing in Israel's rulership than with NYC right? And this is just within government and rulership, not the general society of Israel to NYC, don't jump context.

[Vrubel]

@Danioover9000 Just like in America and most democratic countries the pendulum in Israel swings from right to left and back. The PM before Netanyahu was Olmert, who was leftwing, before that Ariel Sharon, who was rightwing before that Ehud Barak who was leftwing, Netanyahu again, Then Peres and Rabin, both left wing. Most if not all of the leftwing PM's made genuine peace proposals to Palestinians. 

What makes Israelis more rightwing is terror attacks which are basically gifts to Israeli settlers. They then feel that they are fighting terror/evil by building more houses and that they obviously have the moral high ground against blind murderers of civilians. The irony is that the most fringe and extreme Israeli settlers are deeply inspired by Palestinian culture. 

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel I think if the whole West gave Israel the same treatment Ireland is giving Israel currently (you can google it for details), this would be solved.

I think it shows a lot that the country in Europe that went through colonialism, ethnic cleansing, oppression and even genocide, Ireland, is one of the few ones that support Palestine.

While countries that have oppressed, colonized and commited genocide themselves like the UK and France support Israel.

Shows a ton.

Edited February 10 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@Vrubel

26 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

@Danioover9000 Just like in America and most democratic countries the pendulum in Israel swings from right to left and back. The PM before Netanyahu was Olmert, who was leftwing, before that Ariel Sharon, who was rightwing before that Ehud Barak who was leftwing, Netanyahu again, Then Peres and Rabin, both left wing. Most if not all of the leftwing PM's made genuine peace proposals to Palestinians. 

What makes Israelis more rightwing is terror attacks which are basically gifts to Israeli settlers. They then feel that they are fighting terror/evil by building more houses and that they obviously have the moral high ground against blind murderers of civilians. The irony is that the most fringe and extreme Israeli settlers are deeply inspired by Palestinian culture. 

   So basically they're more right wing than NYC local government?

   Blind murderers of civilians?

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I think if the whole West gave Israel the same treatment Ireland is giving Israel currently (you can google it for details), this would be solved.

I know many Irish are blindly reactionary and dogmatic about Israel. They even humiliated their own citizen, the precious little girl Emily who was brutally kidnapped, held hostage all alone and released in the deal. They said she was “lost and found” as if she went missing in a mall.

Their government is weird and said that Ireland is “too white”… yeah… Subsidize tanning booths I guess. 

When a innocent little girl and mother got stabbed in Dublin by a Muslim. All of their attention went to demonizing the concerned people as far right extremists.

Irish have a blindspot for terror because they did some batshit evil terrorism on innocent people in London. Though there are also things about Ireland I respect, they are definitely more chill and developed than Palestinians. If it was the Israeli Irish conflict I would not have minded a one state solution.

 

9 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   So basically they're more right wing than NYC local government?

   Blind murderers of civilians?

Even most Israeli settlers are moderate and model citizens. The media just will never show you this. It doesn’t fit the narrative, it’s easier to demonize. 

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up 😝

Edited February 10 by Nivsch

[zazen]

Ex colonizers should think why the majority of the world don't think like them. At least some colonial states like Portugal and Spain have evolved past that paradigm and recognize wrong from right in the current era. If someone comes out and says clearly who is more in the wrong in a situation - the assumption is that they are biased. But it could also be that even someone who did their best to view a situation objectively with fresh baby eyes and minimal bias comes to the same conclusion of who is more of the aggressor, instigator and oppressive party in a situation. 

There are other reasons why people don't come out and say who is wrong in a situation - maybe cowardice from the consequences, lack of interest in debating the issue, lack of knowledge or just that they don't wish to alienate the other side as the other side usually takes criticism as condescension and hostility.

Fortifying dignity, liberation and self-determination are non-negotiable to people, that's why they're called inalienable rights - it isn't some gift from the oppressor that rewards the oppressed if they behave well like pavlovs dog.

Dignity removes the boot of oppression from the neck, liberation allows the freedom to stand on ones feet and move, and self determination allows the people to choose the path they walk. Those who oppose any of these or denies them to a people becomes their oppressor and can expect resistance, even armed resistance. If those people become liberated and choose to oppress another people, the same mechanism that applied to their original oppressor now applies to them.

[Vrubel]

@zazen Pampering and romanticizing "violent resistance" produces situations like the one we are seeing now. 

[lina]

On 2/6/2024 at 3:22 PM, Nivsch said:

But to draw this with only dark colors and to overlook hamas and Palestinians responsibility is an extremely biased approach he comes from and Owen nodded to with his head with that passion on his body language because it serves his anti Israeli emotional agenda.

Yes I agree he might have some biases possibly because of some personal experiences he went through but overall I think he referred to some points that are worth contemplating regarding his criticism on Zionism and what really fuels antisemitism. 

5 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Though there are also things about Ireland I respect, they are definitely more chill and developed than Palestinians. If it was the Israeli Irish conflict I would not have minded a one state solution.

When I read this comment I imagined being a Palestinian and wondered what sort of reaction they would have towards such thinking, I mean considering that some of them took in refugees in their own homes back before 1948.

Speaking of level of development, are you exposed to in ground Gaza media? Like real footage and first hand personal reports what's happening there. I'm seriously curious to know the answer. 

   

Edited February 10 by lina

[Nivsch]

22 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Vrubel

   So basically they're more right wing than NYC local government?

   Blind murderers of civilians?

There is no intentional murder of civilians here at all.

Not even close.

I can agree about some sort of collective punishment (intentional more or less) and about the influence of the far-right wing government we have now on the degree of the damage in Gaza.

But honestly every western country would react pretty much the same with minor changes.

The preaching I see in videos including in the video on Israel in Leo's blog are not make any impression on me. When you don't acknowledge the equal responsibility the both sides have to the dynamics of the conflict than you are not fair and just moralizing and doing yourself a dopamine massage.

Edited February 10 by Nivsch

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

59 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There is no intentional murder of civilians here at all.

Not even close.

I can agree about some sort of collective punishment (intentional more or less) and about the influence of the far-right wing government we have now on the degree of the damage in Gaza.

But honestly every western country would react pretty much the same with minor changes.

The preaching I see in videos including in Leo blog are not make any impression on me. When you don't acknowledge the equal responsibility the both sides have to the dynamics of the conflict than you are not fair and just moralizing and doing yourself a dopamine massage.

   Or it's difficult to sit on the fences when clearly in one situation one side is more wrong that the other?

   Also, how does one do themselves a dopamine message?

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

7 hours ago, zazen said:

Ex colonizers should think why the majority of the world don't think like them. At least some colonial states like Portugal and Spain have evolved past that paradigm and recognize wrong from right in the current era. If someone comes out and says clearly who is more in the wrong in a situation - the assumption is that they are biased. But it could also be that even someone who did their best to view a situation objectively with fresh baby eyes and minimal bias comes to the same conclusion of who is more of the aggressor, instigator and oppressive party in a situation. 

There are other reasons why people don't come out and say who is wrong in a situation - maybe cowardice from the consequences, lack of interest in debating the issue, lack of knowledge or just that they don't wish to alienate the other side as the other side usually takes criticism as condescension and hostility.

Fortifying dignity, liberation and self-determination are non-negotiable to people, that's why they're called inalienable rights - it isn't some gift from the oppressor that rewards the oppressed if they behave well like pavlovs dog.

Dignity removes the boot of oppression from the neck, liberation allows the freedom to stand on ones feet and move, and self determination allows the people to choose the path they walk. Those who oppose any of these or denies them to a people becomes their oppressor and can expect resistance, even armed resistance. If those people become liberated and choose to oppress another people, the same mechanism that applied to their original oppressor now applies to them.

   That's true to a degree. Even  in Scandinavia's or Sweden's history they have to be Vikings and do the slaving and pillaging first before they grow past all that. Very hard to be that one higher consciousness Viking when most of your clan's built a culture around all that, and took many wars and skirmishes, and organized religion to program that out of them.

[Karmadhi]

11 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up

It is not just Ireland. Also Norway, Belgium etc have supported Palestine quite decently.

Countries like France, Germany and especially UK are historical genocidal warmongering colonizers so I do not expect much national empathy towards these stuff. Hard to call an ex murdered and thief to feel empathy. 

 

 

 

[Karmadhi]

14 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Irish have a blindspot for terror because they did some batshit evil terrorism on innocent people in London. Though there are also things about Ireland I respect, they are definitely more chill and developed than Palestinians. If it was the Israeli Irish conflict I would not have minded a one state solution.

I can flip the script and say France, UK, Germany have a blindspot for colonization, ethnic cleansing and genocide because they did some batshit evil stuff on innocent non Europeans for centuries in the past.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

12 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi Ireland should ask itself why the rest of Europe don't think like her and grow up 😝

   Simple, Ireland was conquered and subjugated first by Vikings, then by GB, and part of it fell under GB rulership, then the whole catholic vs Protestants. Long history of conflict there too, with generational trauma. They, just like South Africa, know what that's like when a people's is humiliated generational. Same 2ith Mongolia and the Russ.

[zazen]

12 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   Or it's difficult to sit on the fences when clearly in one situation one side is more wrong that the other?

   Also, how does one do themselves a dopamine message?

Even a US court has ruled the findings of plausible case for Genocide as valid now.

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/01/genocide-gaza-israel-california-court

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

I can flip the script and say France, UK, Germany have a blindspot for colonization, ethnic cleansing and genocide because they did some batshit evil stuff on innocent non Europeans for centuries in the past.

That's not a fair assessment. You just mush in everything into your narrative damn the nuances and genuine understanding, no surprises here. 

Ireland is exceptionally reactionary and dogmatic due to their history which leads them to do stupid things like humiliate little Irish hostage girl and other cringe and shameful things.
Scandinavian countries are different they will naturally be more naive due to their wealth, small populations and being located in a very developed and safe region of the world. However, I do believe Sweden and Denmark have a more pro-Israel government.
For most countries (also Spain and Belgium) it comes down to where the pendulum has swung at the moment. Spanish and Belgian opposition are more understanding and supportive of Israel.