New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

Honey, I'm home.

BREAKING: Netanyahu rejects cease-fire deal with Hamas and vows to fight until "absolute victory." This madman will set Israel and the world on fire just to delay his inevitable removal from power and the consequences from a pending corruption court case against him.

Keep this in mind in future discussions when Zionists bring up the fact that many peace proposals are rejected by Palestinians - without delving into the details of those proposals or hoping those they discuss with have a short memory or are ignorant of the details.

Even Saudi Arabia has now come out and said no normalization with Israel will take place without a recognized Palestinian state. At the same time a poll shows half of Israel don't want a Palestinian state. Similar to a poll early on in the conflict that showed 60% didn't think Israel was using enough firepower (after dropping the equivalent of two Hiroshimas on a tiny populated area of civilians unable to flee) - keep these poll results in mind next time Zionists claim its only a few extremists in their government, or use Netenyahu as a scapegoat for the systemic entitlement and dehumanizing sentiment a lot of Israeli society has for Palestinians.

'Zionism backs Palestinians into a corner from which they can either die in silence and darkness, leave Palestine and accept the erasure of their homeland, or fight back. Then, when they fight back, Zionists audaciously play victim on the world stage. Truly dystopian..'

Edited February 8 by zazen

[zazen]

To the moderate Israeli's to not get triggered when people refer to 'Zionists' the nuance of how the word is used should be explained. I think a lot of those speaking against 'Zionism' don't necessarily mean the eradication of Israel as a state, but the eradication of an oppressive apartheid version of the state. 

If the idea of Zionism means a state and homeland for Jews then most can be for it (regardless of if they are against ethno-states in general - that's another conversation). But if Zionism means a state for Jews that is formed and exists till today at the expense of local inhabitants within their borders or surrounding it, a state that goes beyond its borders to form a Greater Israel and encroaches land through settlement expansion, and a state that denies local inhabitants outside of its borders statehood and keeps them in a limbo state of affairs which involves a violent 'security' structure that is routinely resisted against - most are against this version of Zionism. Call it ultra-Zionism. 

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell's warning from 1970 on Israel's strategy in the Middle East: 'For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”. 'This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression. 'The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.'

Edited February 8 by zazen

[Karmadhi]

@zazen The issue with Zionism is that it glorifies hardcore Judaism which is a toxic genocidal racist ideology. No issue with moderate Jews but Judaism unlike Christiniaty and Islam is fundamentally racist and genocidal.

Since it was the first religion, it is the least developed and Christinity and Islam which came after corrected a lot of its flaws.

For example Christianity says "All are equal before God", in Judaism basically Jews are superior and the rest should serve them (Racism).

In Islam it is not allowed to kill women and childreen, in Judaism genocide is  embraced when  it comes to protecting Jews (Seed of Amalek).

This is the issue with Zionism, it builds on this ideology/religion which can cause atrocities and apartheid (like it is happening currently).

Note: No issues with moderate Jews. I think most Israelis are secular Jews, here I am talking about hardcore religious people.

This information I got from recently reading Yuvan noah harari s work.

Edited February 8 by Karmadhi

[Danioover9000]

@zazen

2 hours ago, zazen said:

To the moderate Israeli's to not get triggered when people refer to 'Zionists' the nuance of how the word is used should be explained. I think a lot of those speaking against 'Zionism' don't necessarily mean the eradication of Israel as a state, but the eradication of an oppressive apartheid version of the state. 

If the idea of Zionism means a state and homeland for Jews then most can be for it (regardless of if they are against ethno-states in general - that's another conversation). But if Zionism means a state for Jews that is formed and exists till today at the expense of local inhabitants within their borders or surrounding it, a state that goes beyond its borders to form a Greater Israel and encroaches land through settlement expansion, and a state that denies local inhabitants outside of its borders statehood and keeps them in a limbo state of affairs which involves a violent 'security' structure that is routinely resisted against - most are against this version of Zionism. Call it ultra-Zionism. 

The British philosopher Bertrand Russell's warning from 1970 on Israel's strategy in the Middle East: 'For over 20 years Israel has expanded by force of arms. After every stage in this expansion Israel has appealed to “reason” and has suggested “negotiations”. 'This is the traditional role of the imperial power, because it wishes to consolidate with the least difficulty what it has already taken by violence. Every new conquest becomes the new basis of the proposed negotiation from strength, which ignores the injustice of the previous aggression. 'The aggression committed by Israel must be condemned, not only because no state has the right to annex foreign territory, but because every expansion is an experiment to discover how much more aggression the world will tolerate.'

   Good explanation of Zionism. It's basically a call against the Israel alt right that demand a greater Israel.

[Karmadhi]

It baffles me how Israel has completly lost all reason and morality just from loosing 800 civilians.

Countries in history lost so much more and kept their cool.

Ukraine has lost 10.000 at least and still is not as genocidal as "civilized" Israel.

Insane country.

[Vrubel]

9 hours ago, zazen said:

BREAKING: Netanyahu rejects cease-fire deal with Hamas and vows to fight until "absolute victory." This madman will set Israel and the world on fire just to delay his inevitable removal from power and the consequences from a pending corruption court case against him.

Keep this in mind in future discussions when Zionists bring up the fact that many peace proposals are rejected by Palestinians - without delving into the details of those proposals or hoping those they discuss with have a short memory or are ignorant of the details.

That’s not at all a thorough take on Netanyahu’s decision-making here.
It seems to me you filter all and any information to fit a very specific narrative. In previous posts, I explained the concept of mushy-mindedness.  

 

6 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

@zazen The issue with Zionism is that it glorifies hardcore Judaism which is a toxic genocidal racist ideology. No issue with moderate Jews but Judaism unlike Christiniaty and Islam is fundamentally racist and genocidal.

Since it was the first religion, it is the least developed and Christinity and Islam which came after corrected a lot of its flaws.

For example Christianity says "All are equal before God", in Judaism basically Jews are superior and the rest should serve them (Racism).

In Islam it is not allowed to kill women and childreen, in Judaism genocide is  embraced when  it comes to protecting Jews (Seed of Amalek).

This is the issue with Zionism, it builds on this ideology/religion which can cause atrocities and apartheid (like it is happening currently).

Note: No issues with moderate Jews. I think most Israelis are secular Jews, here I am talking about hardcore religious people.

This information I got from recently reading Yuvan noah harari s work.

 

I genuinely find this funny. Thanks for making me smile. I can see you "try" to understand Jews but instead of genuinely understanding you just filter and extrapolate to fit your narrative and agenda. Historically Christianity was not exactly known for its tolerance and treating everybody equally, to put it extremely lightly. And Islam never harms children and WOMEN?

In traditional Arab culture, a brother will kill his own sister if she had premarital sex or even got raped because the dishonor is so big. That shit even happens from time to time in my hometown in Israel (both Arabs and Jews live there). 

 

4 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

It baffles me how Israel has completly lost all reason and morality just from loosing 800 civilians.

What's baffling is your non-understanding and projection. It's okay to have bias and feel sympathy for Palestinians but you basically, mentally wrestled yourself into some kind of corner.

Israel is not fighting a war of choice. There is a fire under their feet that leaves them no choice but to take out Hamas. 


 

[Twentyfirst]

13 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Karmadhi without even see it I choose to believe you and there are crap soldiers and bad husbands and bad human beings everywhere.

You won't think differently anyway. No need to prove you anything.

But you credit Israel for all the good things. The fake democracy, the gay strip clubs, women dressing like sexual objects. All the things that make it a shining beacon in the Middle East which would otherwise be a sand pit. But when Israel does bad it doesn't represent the nation but rouge agents 

Edited February 9 by Twentyfirst

[Twentyfirst]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

 

In traditional Arab culture, a brother will kill his own sister if she had premarital sex or even got raped because the dishonor is so big. That shit even happens from time to time in my hometown in Israel (both Arabs and Jews live there). 

 

Whats your point? In the West they kill each other too 

[Nivsch]

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

Edited February 9 by Nivsch

[Heaven]

41 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

These pro Palestinians are like a broken record. They will say whatever they can do make Israel look bad.. Sometimes it feels to me like they are bots.

They highly ignore the spread of hate towards the Jews and the effect it has worldwide. Antisemitism is climbing and Jews around the world get attacked.

They ignore the basics. Schooling right now in Gaza and the West Bank are teaching children about Hitler and brain wash their minds to die as a Shaheed (In their teachings it’s to kill Israelis). 
Palestinians state with the current authority will be a disaster. Admit it. 
 

 

[Heaven]

4 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

Whats your point? In the West they kill each other too 

Stop answer like a lil kid.. There is a huge difference between abusing women because it’s inherent in your religion than some random acts of insanity.

[zazen]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict

Why is it that most of the Jewish youth of America don't agree with the Israeli states actions and have actually been the most vocal about it in protest? This suggests their is a difference in mentality. Unless you refer to the settlers who come from America and feel entitled to take Palestinians homes like the famous Jacob from Brooklyn who said 'If i don't steal it someone else will' - those guys are similar to Israeli mentality of the far right.

10 hours ago, Vrubel said:

That’s not at all a thorough take on Netanyahu’s decision-making here.
It seems to me you filter all and any information to fit a very specific narrative. In previous posts, I explained the concept of mushy-mindedness.

It wasn't meant to be thorough take. But since you think you know better whats going on in Netenyahu's head maybe elaborate on it.  If its as simple as 'he's trying to defeat Hamas absolutely and get rid of them' then that's nothing new. The question is, how realistic is that, what will be the consequences of that (suffering of many more Palestinians) and can Israel afford more bad press world wide and war crimes being live streamed boastfully by the IDF to be further embarrassed by the ICJ case which I'm sure is noting all of it and will display it on their follow up. 

 

[Vrubel]

25 minutes ago, zazen said:

Why is it that most of the Jewish youth of America don't agree with the Israeli states actions and have actually been the most vocal about it in protest? This suggests their is a difference in mentality. Unless you refer to the settlers who come from America and feel entitled to take Palestinians homes like the famous Jacob from Brooklyn who said 'If i don't steal it someone else will' - those guys are similar to Israeli mentality of the far right.

Obviously, American Jews will have a different culture and worldview due to their specific survival challenges (or lack thereof). Also, America has a very loudmouthed polarized culture. Many young American Jews will get mindlessly swiped up into stage green hiveminds, maybe they'll mature and grow out of it. Either way, Americans and American Jews are goofy AF . Still love them though.
 

38 minutes ago, zazen said:

It wasn't meant to be thorough take.

Oke, but everybody can mindlessly shit-talk. Say what you want but in this instance, Netanyahu is demonstrating real leadership in this absolutely horrific situation with no easy answers. 

 

9 hours ago, Twentyfirst said:

But you credit Israel for all the good things. The fake democracy, the gay strip clubs, women dressing like sexual objects.

 

What a creepy ass post, Don’t project Muslims inability to tolerate free women. The reason you have the need to control women is because your society is not mature enough to handle women expressing their beauty and free will.

 

[Karmadhi]

13 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Historically Christianity was not exactly known for its tolerance and treating everybody equally, to put it extremely lightly. And Islam never harms children and WOMEN?

In traditional Arab culture, a brother will kill his own sister if she had premarital sex or even got raped because the dishonor is so big. That shit even happens from time to time in my hometown in Israel (both Arabs and Jews live there). 

Dont confuse application from the manual. I am talking about what the holy book says for each of them. I am not saying that in real life Islam never harms civilians or Christianity treats all the same. In Judaism it is clearly written that Jews are more important than Gentiles, in Christianity are the same in front of God. That is what I meant. Sorry if it came wrong.

 

13 hours ago, Vrubel said:

What's baffling is your non-understanding and projection. It's okay to have bias and feel sympathy for Palestinians but you basically, mentally wrestled yourself into some kind of corner.

There have been polls where most Israelis said "not enough force has been used on Gaza". So dropping 3 Hiroshimas worth of TNT in a small dense area is not enough. There are Israelis trying to block humanitarian aid to enter Gaza. It is sick. 

 

 

 

Edited February 9 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Israelis are no different in their mentality and development than the average of New York, California and Texas. And if you think they are, your view is highly deluded and you are not in a stable position to do a higher resolution discussion about the conflict.

The average moderate Israeli yes. The hardcore Orthodox Jews are not. 

[Nivsch]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

These pro Palestinians are like a broken record. They will say whatever they can do make Israel look bad.. Sometimes it feels to me like they are bots.

They highly ignore the spread of hate towards the Jews and the effect it has worldwide. Antisemitism is climbing and Jews around the world get attacked.

They ignore the basics. Schooling right now in Gaza and the West Bank are teaching children about Hitler and brain wash their minds to die as a Shaheed (In their teachings it’s to kill Israelis). 
Palestinians state with the current authority will be a disaster. Admit it. 

I really understand you. This is frustrating.

They don't understand that 90% of Israeli Jews are westerners in all of their facets. Mentality, education and everything.

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

They highly ignore the spread of hate towards the Jews and the effect it has worldwide. Antisemitism is climbing and Jews around the world get attacked.

Yes that is sad. Many Jews around the world are being victim to it for no reason. Issue is Israel and their horrible policies not Jews living outside Israel. To show you how wrong Israel is here, many many Jews that live outside Israel have openly protested about the war. 

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

They ignore the basics. Schooling right now in Gaza and the West Bank are teaching children about Hitler and brain wash their minds to die as a Shaheed (In their teachings it’s to kill Israelis). 
Palestinians state with the current authority will be a disaster. Admit it. 

Well you also ignore the basics that lead people to have such views. Arabs did not worthship Hitler before Israeli terrible policies. Jews and Arabs lived at peace for centuries. There was none of this hate. Their hate came from a source. The source are those policies. The hate will not disappear until the policies change. Start talking some responsability.

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Heaven said:

There is a huge difference between abusing women because it’s inherent in your religion than some random acts of insanity.

And Judaism  claims non Jews are inherently lesser than Gentiles, it is inherent in the  religion too. Islam is more developed than classic Judaism. Mostly because it came later and built up on previous religions. Judaism was the first and therefore the least developed. I am not shitting on it per say since most people do not practice it but I find it extremely dangerous, compared to the other 2. The reason people find it "ok" is because so few actually practice it hardcore compared to other religions.

And I am personally none of them. 

[zazen]

@Karmadhi Yeah, every religion can be taken and perverted. Some more than others depending on what their texts contain and the conciousness reading them as you mentioned and outlined nicely. Judaism seems oriented around a people, Christianity around the fact that man is god (though they took this more literally than metaphorically that we all contain God essence / Christ consciousness), Islam went beyond ethnicity and claimed God is a all encompassing unity beyond the form of gender and genetics. Its conception of God is a more accurate map of the reality of God.

How religion is used can definitely influence the psyche and help normalize certain behaviors, mixed in with the ideology of nationality. For example the following:

''Investigation by Haaretz reveals not only that the Israeli military is covertly running a racist, genocide-promoting social media account, 72 Virgins, but that the military lied when challenged about its involvement. A typical post shows a video of an Israeli military vehicle driving backwards and forwards over a Palestinian with the excited caption: 'Run him over run him over!!!! Screw the bastards! Flatten them.' The Haaretz report can read here: https://archive.ph/DqeYw ''

The claim that just because a certain society allows more freedom for gay people to openly show public displays of affection or that women aren't shamed for sleeping around - that this allows them to be given more of a free pass in committing massacres is irrelevant and indefensible. 

Edited February 9 by zazen

[Nivsch]

20 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

 Well you also ignore the basics that lead people to have such views. Arabs did not worthship Hitler before Israeli terrible policies. Jews and Arabs lived at peace for centuries. There was none of this hate. Their hate came from a source. The source are those policies. The hate will not disappear until the policies change. Start talking some responsability.

The responsibility is mutual and intertwined to a gordian knot between the sides. Every side need to work on his own.

But this isn't the game being played here in this forum and we aren't stupid.