New War In Israel / Gaza

[kenway]

 

 

Edited January 18 by kenway

[Nivsch]

1 hour ago, Joel3102 said:

The current government hasn’t been particularly interested in peace. But also, a two state solution was offered in 2000 and rejected by the Palestinians with no counteroffer and Israel got the second intifada instead. 
 

Then they withdraw from Gaza in 2005 and get nothing but rockets from an Islamist group. Of course that’s gonna shift Israel to the right.

+1 💛

[Nivsch]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What lead to Oct 7th was the decades-long Israeli policy of settlement and indefinite stalling of any kind of long-term peace deal that recognizes the rights and soveriegnty of Palestinians.

But by that logic, what lead to the second Intifada with suicide bombings twice a week in the early 2000's was Oslo agreement (1993), Oslo 2nd agreement (1995), Hebron agreement (1997), Y agreement (1998), Camp David negotiation (2000)...

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

And if my "used" you mean some Hamas guy slept in one apartment in a high-rise of 500 units, so what? That doesn't justify destroying the building.

By using I mean it was pre-trapped (before the war) and the logic behind that is that in the same way hamas has invested every second since 2005 to build a 400 km length tunnels city, it also has invested in trapping entire neighborhoods all across the Gaza strip way before the war started.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course now they booby-trap houses in the middle of a warzone. So what? It's urban warfare.

What I think is that just like the undergroung tunnels-city, also this was already made before the war.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Are Israeli villages sterile? If one radical Zionist settler lives in a kibbutz, does that mean we can bomb the whole kibbutz now? There are many radical far-right Zionists sprinkled amidst the otherwise sensible Israeli population. Does that mean we can bomb high-rises in Tel Aviv?

I agree with you in this logic but the question is, if this is really the case in Gaza because according to the ever arming-race of hamas the situation there is, I think, very different.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think Hamas would have any problem giving back the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire

Why do you think that?

Edited January 18 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Why do you think that?

Thinking Israel is currently fighting primarily to free the hostages is as delusional as thinking Russia is invading Ukraine to denazify it.

I do not think you need a lot of intelligence to see that their current government is a bunch of right wing racist neo nazi fanatics that want to cleanse Gaza and annex it. That is their goal at the moment. If it was about hostages they could easily do a permanent truce with Hamas and get them back.

Not only they are not doing it, but they keep bombing Gaza, endangering the hostages lives and even shooting at naked civilians wearing white flags which results in accidental hostage killings.

 

Edited January 18 by Karmadhi

[kenway]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

I do not think you need a lot of intelligence to see that their current government is a bunch of right wing racist neo nazi fanatics that want to cleanse Gaza and annex it. That is their goal at the moment.

 

Absolutely correct.

But the weird thing is, that a lot of the brainwashed Zionists (even in this thread) are actually decent, compassionate and intelligent people.

I don't exclude @Nivsch from that portrayal, who is clearly intelligent and with good heart.

[kenway]

On 15/01/2024 at 7:40 PM, Nivsch said:

 

 

By the way @Nivsch I forgot to thank you for posting these videos. I watched them all and enjoyed them.

I appreciate that you're trying to demonstrate a dimension to Israel that might not be apparent in this thread, and I empathise that it must be frustrating.

[Karmadhi]

26 minutes ago, kenway said:

But the weird thing is, that a lot of the brainwashed Zionists (even in this thread) are actually decent, compassionate and intelligent people.

I don't exclude @Nivsch from that portrayal, who is clearly intelligent and with good heart

That is the issue with propaganda and biases. It makes normally decent people to rationalize in their minds atrocities.

Russians do the same with Ukranian suffering.

However, the current Israeli high level politicians, especially some of the right wing ones like Ben Gavir and the PM himself, are not good people, they are bad people in my opinion and need to go down.

 

Edited January 18 by Karmadhi

[kenway]

10 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

However, the current Israeli high level politicians, especially some of the right wing ones like Ben Gavir and the PM himself, are not good people, they are bad people in my opinion and need to go down.

 

 

Oh I definitely agree with you there. That's a whole different level.

[Karmadhi]

19 minutes ago, kenway said:

Oh I definitely agree with you there. That's a whole different level.

A war crime trial similar to the Nurenberg Trials would be the best thing I think.

It would show that Israel can be held accountable for its crimes, it would clean the politican landscape, giving road to perhaps more liberal politicans.

It would also appease the hatred and rage that most of the world has towards Israel at the moment.

From what I saw these people are bad for Israeli too, so I doubt the country will suffer if they are sent to jail.

I see it as an absolute win.

Edited January 18 by Karmadhi

[zazen]

8 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

A war crime trial similar to the Nurenberg Trials would be the best thing I think.

It would show that Israel can be held accountable for its crimes, it would clean the politican landscape, giving road to perhaps more liberal politicans.

It would also appease the hatred and rage that most of the world has towards Israel at the moment.

From what I saw these people are bad for Israeli too, so I doubt the country will suffer if they are sent to jail.

I see it as an absolute win.

 “The Hague Invasion Act is a United States federal law described as "a bill to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution by an international criminal court to which the United States is not party.

The Act gives the president power to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court"

Unfortunately, this is the “rule based order” that the global south are current opposing and building parallel systems to if not upheld in principle.

If we read that act and then the definition of terrorism: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims - makes one step back and see the world in a different way.

Edited January 18 by zazen

[Bobby_2021]

21 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If someone murdered a child on the street and fled the police by running and hiding into a 20 floor high-rise building where your mother happened to live, would you be cool if we dropped a 2000lb bomb on that building, leveling it to the ground?

This example shows the insane bias of the Israeli position. You would never accept such a situation.

This is the topic of Double Standards that I have an excellent video on. Study it closely and apply to your political positions. If you dare.

In that case you would do a special operation to take out the terrorist. But a special forces operation will not work when there are thousands of well-trained terrorists with weapons who has held your mom hostage and use children as shields.

[kenway]

Quote

In that case you would do a special operation to take out the terrorist. But a special forces operation will not work when there are thousands of well-trained terrorists with weapons who has held your mom hostage and use children as shields.

@Bobby_2021

lol so basically what you're saying is that it would be fine to bomb your mom then?

Edited January 18 by kenway

[Raze]

40 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

In that case you would do a special operation to take out the terrorist. But a special forces operation will not work when there are thousands of well-trained terrorists with weapons who has held your mom hostage and use children as shields.

Bombing isn’t working either then, just after Israel claimed it finished in the north Hamas launched tons of rockets from it.

[Karmadhi]

@Bobby_2021 Israeli s army is way bigger and better equipped. Also superior technology. So of course it can be done. What is the problem here?

[Bobby_2021]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

3. hamas interest to always maximize civilians casualties to make Israel stop because they know this is our weakness.

Not just Hamas, the entire Arab world is okay sacrificing the lives of civilians of Palestine solely for the purpose of making Israel look bad. Even Egypt and Saudi wanted to side with Israel, but they could not because of peer pressure from the Arab world. They are not willing to make any concessions of any form whatsoever.

6 minutes ago, kenway said:

@Bobby_2021

lol so basically what you're saying is that it would be fine to bomb your mom then?

If my mom is living beside terrorists, then it's a matter of time before she gets bombed anyway. It's not like you have a choice. It is something that is bound to happen sooner than later. If she is kidnapped by terrorists, then there is a lot more room for diplomacy to get her back. 

Let's say worse come to the worst, if I have to say goodbye to my mother in exchange for wiping out a global terrorist organization from the map, I would not be particularly happy by it, but I would totally understand why it happened, if it happened. These are the consequences of living near terrorists. It comes as a package and is totally to be expected. This is the price you pay for living in an uncivilized world, through no fault of your own. If I was born in Palestine, then I would not be mature enough to realize all this. But I am not. 

Also, you have to make a decision eventually.  End the cycle of terrorism before they kidnap and torture even more women and children. And establish an international body to ensure the rights and sovereignty of Palestine citizens. The ideal case is that all three terrorist groups get wiped off the map. I trust Israel to make it happen. 

Quote

I don't think Hamas would have any problem giving back the hostages in exchange for a ceasefire. So the hostages are not a driving factor in this war. The Israeli leaderships shows that their concern for the hostages is at best a second priority.

So, if Israel did not attack, they wouldn't even have any leverage to get the hostages back?

Are you saying that bombing till now was justified if getting back the hostages was indeed the first priority. 

[lina]

Horrific... Remember when we were debating few months ago about who bombed the first hospital? Now NONE are left. 

 

 

And here Netanyahu willing to continue the war into 2025....! 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-war-against-hamas-set-to-continue-into-2025-tv-report/  

Edited January 18 by lina

[Bobby_2021]

2 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

@Bobby_2021 Israeli s army is way bigger and better equipped. Also superior technology. So of course it can be done. What is the problem here?

Do you know the efforts US put into studying Bin Laden's residence before they went ahead with the special operations. You cannot launch the special forces on a whim.

When you are in enemy territory, the enemy is the superior one purely by looking at the numbers. Your superiority does not count to anything. Home advantage is the true superiority. Special forces works only when the enemy is isolated, relatively unarmed with little security. None of which resembles Hamas.

All these people suggesting special forces operation like the one US used to take out Bin Laden wants to feel like they are contributing to a solution here. It is not the solution. You will get smoked by a decently armed Palestine civilian, if not Hamas militants.   

11 minutes ago, Raze said:

Bombing isn’t working either then, just after Israel claimed it finished in the north Hamas launched tons of rockets from it.

So, what you want to happen. They should have done nothing at all and watch it all unfolding Infront of their eyes. How do you plan to get the hostages back? Or should you let them take hostages routinely and let them parade the women they killed? 

Bombing is letting them know of the consequences they could be facing and that might be their end. War is about to continue into the future. I only hope something comes out of it. Both of them fire rockets at each other routinely. Just that the ones fired by Israel lands often.

[kenway]

24 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

If my mom is living beside terrorists, then it's a matter of time before she gets bombed anyway. It's not like you have a choice. It is something that is bound to happen sooner than later. If she is kidnapped by terrorists, then there is a lot more room for diplomacy to get her back. 

Let's say worse come to the worst, if I have to say goodbye to my mother in exchange for wiping out a global terrorist organization from the map, I would not be particularly happy by it, but I would totally understand why it happened, if it happened. These are the consequences of living near terrorists. It comes as a package and is totally to be expected. This is the price you pay for living in an uncivilized world, through no fault of your own. If I was born in Palestine, then I would not be mature enough to realize all this. But I am not. 

Also, you have to make a decision eventually.  End the cycle of terrorism before they kidnap and torture even more women and children. And establish an international body to ensure the rights and sovereignty of Palestine citizens. The ideal case is that all three terrorist groups get wiped off the map. I trust Israel to make it happen.

 

With all due respect, this is just paragraph after paragraph of nonsense.

[Nivsch]

23 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Do you know the efforts US put into studying Bin Laden's residence before they went ahead with the special operations. You cannot launch the special forces on a whim.

When you are in enemy territory, the enemy is the superior one purely by looking at the numbers. Your superiority does not count to anything. Home advantage is the true superiority. Special forces works only when the enemy is isolated, relatively unarmed with little security. None of which resembles Hamas.

+1 🧡

For everybody who is saying Israel can just get in without a very broad scale air phase first.

Edited January 18 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

13 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

They should have done nothing at all and watch it all unfolding Infront of their eyes. How do you plan to get the hostages back? Or should you let them take hostages routinely and let them parade the women they killed? 

Bombing is letting them know of the consequences they could be facing and that might be their end. War is about to continue into the future. I only hope something comes out of it. Both of them fire rockets at each other routinely. Just that the ones fired by Israel lands often.

+1 🧡