Posted January 12 @lina 9 minutes ago, lina said: Surprisingly even the Spiral Dynamics model got weaponized and some are starting to use the same "rats/cockroaches" example, but change the wording to "red stage" and then continue with the same dehumanization and supremacy rhetoric to justify the violence and apartheid. That's part of the challenges to communicating, and handling semantics/syntax structures. I sometimes would do this, use stereotypes or caricature examples to exemplify each stage of development with. The real issue is when using a stereotype of a person or group, the user doesn't clarify or explain briefly why the example was used, and lately in this thread whenever someone uses Spiral Dynamics to demonize/dehumanize, they just use the negative loaded terms and stereotypes, but don't explain why it specifically used, they just negative label mainly HAMMAs and sometimes Hezbollah as just stage red terrorists, maybe include Houthis, or ISIS, or Afghanistan's Al Qaeda, most polarized perspectives just label them 'stage red' without bringing up nuances when, for example, Hezbollah has stage blue elements like hospitals, schooling, farming, and other social infrastructures within it's own hierarchy in Southern Lebanon, or don't add prior context to say that Israel's invasion of Lebanon, and disconnecting the north and middle from south Lebanon gave opportunities for the militia groups to form Hezbollah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @kenway 23 minutes ago, kenway said: Currently watching Finkelstein's latest take that was broadcast last night post the South African arguments. I'd also be interested in hearing his take on the Israeli defense, if for no other reason than to help decode it. There were moments during Israels defense when I literally had no idea what they were talking about. Great observation. I've watched the South African part, and currently watching Israel's part. Generally, you're not missing much, just linguistically Israel reframing and distorting and deflecting with use of sophistry, undermining the definitions of genocide, good dodging and deflecting. I will be doing a body language analysis on both parts as I generally feel that some speakers on either side, just some, have nervousness or defensiveness. Especially a few of Israel's defense lawyers, the first guy was too shifty and adjusting his papers too often, also on podium he leans away from South African side. Also moments of lip retraction, lip licks and lip compression, just slight whenever he brings up South Africa, genocide, and giving some talking points of Israel's defense. Second guy from Britain, good linguistics, actually chose the right angle to attack South Africa's case from, although his claim they just want to keep range within 75 years, and his whataboutism on historical ranges to consider. Also pro tip: if you ever feel dry throat, and feel your voice about to go hoarse and dry, pause and drink some water, strategically pause to drink water because that moment when his voice failed, and he had to dry swallow non-verbally communicates weakness. Also, nick pick here, please when you wear glasses wear them properly, because the camera angle makes him look looney, and unkept, maybe camera angle. Edited January 12 by Danioover9000 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 25 minutes ago, lina said: Surprisingly even the Spiral Dynamics model got weaponized and some are starting to use the same "rats/cockroaches" example, but change the wording to "red stage" and then continue with the same dehumanization and supremacy rhetoric to justify the violence and apartheid. True, pure misuse and abuse of a model/framework. The worst use of that argument is that the less developed need to develop to be given a state or shouldn’t govern themselves because by looking around at other Arab nations they’re dysfunctional. If I’m not mistaken that almost sounds colonial. @Danioover9000 Good points and observations made 👍🏻 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 31 minutes ago, kenway said: I'd also be interested in hearing his take on the Israeli defense, if for no other reason than to help decode it. There were moments during Israels defense when I literally had no idea what they were talking about. It just didn’t seem coherent, was like a master class in whataboutery. Some standalone points did seem like good counters but then the facts seem to go against their own - like the claim they didn’t bomb any hospitals. The military strategy doesn’t seem to match their objective of targeting Hamas either. If you notify a building before bombing it then Hamas will surely run away also or relocate. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) 🇿🇦 South Africa delegation: "hamas is NOT a terror organization". A month ago South Africa leadership even hosted hamas leaders in their parliament. Now its clear their prosecution submitted to Hugue courte is highly infected to begin with. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2ASM08osuJ/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== Edited January 12 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) 2 hours ago, zazen said: Some standalone points did seem like good counters but then the facts seem to go against their own - like the claim they didn’t bomb any hospitals. Yep I noticed that. One of the greatest and most frustrating dimensions about Israel/Palestine is the manner in which "language" and "facts" get so lost in overloaded implication - it's practically impossible to unpack in realtime. Words like "terrorist" and "ceasefire" go through the filters of the subconscious completely unchecked, simply because it is just far too fatiguing to defend and reconfigure back into reality each time such words are mentioned. This is despite the understanding, that really, words like "terrorist" are too simplistic for purpose, and often inaccurate, while words like "ceasefire" imply a war of equal-footedness, rather than a slaughter of merciless disproportion. The "hospital incident" (singular) referenced because of its media fanfare, is of course just one of many hospital destructions. The narrative that Israel didn't bomb the hospital is of course patently absurd. There's no way Hamas rockets could have created the damage that was achieved there. Not only that, acoustic analysis of the missile strikes fingerprint the destructions back to the type of missiles that Israel was using. From there it's almost a game of sudoku: If you know Israel is lying about the hospital destruction, then the "intelligence wiretaps" pertaining to Palestinian complicity (reported by the media) have to be fake. But all of this is lost, and will remain lost, due to the tragic fatigue of having to labour these points each time that these situations are raised. Edited January 12 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 22 minutes ago, Nivsch said: 🇿🇦 South Africa delegation: "hamas is NOT a terror organization". A month ago South Africa leadership even hosted hamas leaders in their parliament. Now its clear their prosecution submitted to Hugue courte is highly infected to begin with. https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2ASM08osuJ/?igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== They condemned the attack when asked, and apparently they received a call for aid to Palestinian not actually hosted them based on this article: https://www.reuters.com/world/south-africa-says-it-discussed-aid-with-hamas-leader-denies-reports-support-2023-10-18/ "We do not have a bilateral relationship with Hamas... Support for the Palestinian struggle against occupation does not equate to support for Hamas," Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @Happy Lizard come on. I even don't know how to comment to that. Take your thoughts to where you want. I am not trying to convince anybody. Edited January 12 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 14 minutes ago, Nivsch said: @Happy Lizard come on. I even don't know how to comment to that. Take your thoughts to where you want. I am not trying to convince anybody. You twist anything to fit your narrative. Which ironically is what you project on everyone else that doesn’t agree with you. Pass the popcorn. 🤡 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 @Nivsch well idk one should ask why would they support Hamas to begin with? It doesn’t make sense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @Merkabah Star This is just so ridiculous. They even didn't agree to say hamas is a terror organization. This is so clear to me what is going on here. Sometimes a good intuition is really enough when you obviously don't and won't have the precise 100.00% scientific proof for many things. I saw 2 hours from the SA speeches (1 hour left to see) and the 3 hours of Israel response. The differences in the level and the quality of the claims are huge. No doubt at all, for me, that those accusation are not any other than an abuse, in a similar way conspiracy theorists use curnel of truths to make a totally engineered and wrong in its essence story. Israel's response was so much more directive, broad in their context that could keep a sensible and healthy structure all along the way, calm even, confident and to the point. For me it is very clear. This is not to say there are no problems need to be addressed as I said before in my comment to the video of ex-IDF soldier @Raze added, but the whole accusation of "genocide" is an entire house of cards. Absolutely ridiculous. Edited January 12 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 12 (edited) @kenway Well said, the word fatigue is the best way to describe it when claims are made that contradict facts and heavy terms are used that need to be defined by both sides for effective communication. The term terrorist has become a weaponised label no one wants to be associated with the same way no one wants to be accused of genocide. @Nivsch I think the reason some hesitate to call Hamas terrorists especially like that South African guy is because in South Africa’s history it was Nelson Mandela who helped end apartheid / injustice and go on to become the first democratically elected President of the country - yet he was labeled a terrorist. The locals saw him as a freedom fighter and the movement as a resistance to oppression likewise how some view Hamas who are as the embodiment of Palestinian resistance with an armed wing and who deploy terrorist tactics. Just today Biden called Houthis terrorists - yet he actually removed that designation in 2001 - https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1256923 They haven’t killed anyone in their protest to Israel, only blockaded shipments going to Israel (a taste of their own medicine for blockading Gaza for 18 years) within their own territorial waters and asked for a ceasefire or aid to be allowed in- for this they get bombed. It seems whoever goes against the empires interest are deemed terrorists. The message sent is that container ships and bottom line profits are more important than innocent babies, children, men and women being killed and displaced in Gaza. If we go by the definition of terrorism as the ‘unlawful use of violence or intimidation for political ends’ - wasn’t the UK and US striking Yemen without passing Parlimanent in UK and Congress in US unlawful? And for which political end, for their own countries politics or for another countries ie Israel’s political end. If lawful use of violence is used does that make it right? For example, just to show how sneaky laws can be in legalising what could otherwise be called terrorism: There exists a Act “known informally as the Hague Invasion Act - a United States federal law described as "a bill to protect United States military personnel and other elected and appointed officials of the United States government against criminal prosecution by the international criminal court. The Act authorizes the president of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court". This authorization led to the act being colloquially nicknamed "The Hague Invasion Act", as the act allows the president to order U.S. military action, such as an invasion of the Netherlands, where The Hague is located, to protect American officials and military personnel from prosecution or rescue them from custody.” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act Edited January 12 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 13 @zazen Finkelstein talking about the Israeli defense now. Quote: "South Africa concentrated on the facts. Israel concentrated on the law." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 13 (edited) @kenway Good video, seems like the end result they predict will be a middle road taken by the judges - claiming in soft terms that genocide is underway but minimal measures will be applied in stopping it. The problem is one also of enforcement and entrenched interests. No one in the Middle East is interested in war escalation counter to the stereotypical claim of Muslims being violent - on the contrary the region has been calling for de-escalation, ceasefire and negotiations. Hezbollah had also only addressed Israel to say they will only retaliate in proportion and never in excess. South Africa are proactively protesting legally and Yemen economically by their blockade for which the US/UK are intervening militarily and with violence. If the elites ignore public protest, intervene through anti-BDS laws and now militarily to Yemens economic blockade - can people really wonder why unjust terrorist acts and violence occur as a means of seeking justice? The message sent is that the only price they understand is a blood price - even then, the US economy being oriented towards being a war machine will feed on that blood to as usual benefit the few at the expense of the many. WCSF (wounded child no surviving family) - a new acronym born from Israel’s Gaza onslaught. If they can’t re-define words at least they’ve created a new acronym, but one that isn’t the contribution or win they think it is. Edited January 13 by zazen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, zazen said: If the elites ignore public protest, intervene through anti-BDS laws and now militarily to Yemens economic blockade - can people really wonder why unjust terrorist acts and violence occur as a means of seeking justice? Which (to me) invokes a deeper anxiety. Aside the already escalating anxiety of a broader regional war, it would be uncomfortably convenient for a 9/11 type attack to take place somewhere on western soil right now, fitting into the narrative as: "Well this is obviously revenge for the genocide." In that instance, not only would the case for peace be wiped from the collective consciousness (amid the chaos and cacophony of all that followed), it would also mean that anyone who ever stood up for the Palestinians would be tarnished as though they were the terrorists themselves. Edited January 13 by kenway Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 13 @Danioover9000 Yeah I understand you, I was mainly referring to when people use the model to paint entire nations with a stage or two and then start to justify why those peoples' lives are not as worthy and don't deserve to have sovereignty as @zazen mentioned as an example, or why violence and oppression is the only solution to deal with them. If anything the emergence of red stage is due to the constant threat of violence, so purposefully inhibiting the development or a certain group and then blaming them for it to keep them in this cycle sounds very devilish to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 13 (edited) @Raze This video provides interesting points to discuss along with other weaker claims and of course dismissing of any hamas and palestinians responsibility in this tango. However this is light years away from the persecution's original accusation anyway. There is a deep and intersting to me psychological issue with the passion when people want to blame Israel that is still never the same as another war zones discussion where the situation is far worse Edited January 13 by Nivsch 🌻 Stage Yellow emerges when Green starts to have tolerance and respect to the variety of views within HIMSELF. Israelis here? Let me know! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted January 13 "The lesson of the Holocaust, is not that you should defend Israel when it is committing atrocities, but rather that one should stand against atrocities regardless of who commits them, and who endures them." - Riyad Mansour Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
