New War In Israel / Gaza

[StarStruck]

7 minutes ago, hundreth said:

Yeah this "holocaust" speak has become very fashionable. Outsiders like to mental masturbate to Jews committing a "holocaust" but we know even at our worst it's extremely different. 

You lost all credibility bro. Just wait and see. 

[kenway]

[Raze]

 

[Karmadhi]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

You can suggest better ways to annihilate this terror organization if you have

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==
Here you go

Only do this, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs and no cruise missles.

Just do this type of strikes.

This is how you humanely take out people hiding amongst civilians 

[Happy Lizard]

42 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0fz_MxOZET/?igshid=NzBmMjdhZWRiYQ==
Here you go

Only do this, no 2000 paund bombs, no dumb bombs and no cruise missles.

Just do this type of strikes.

This is how you humanely take out people hiding amongst civilians 

I don’t think anyone with a functional moral campus or a critical rational mind cant see how leveling down a city for the purposes of killing a relatively small number of terrorist while massacring a population is not vengeful dishonorable or defendable. 
This is sick is what it is.

there was a debate in the beginning of this thread and this war that Israel is on a higher level as a developed as country therefore it can be trusted to carry this war. “They would have nuked Gaza if they were not” yet dropping a nuclear weapon is just a means to an end, it doesn’t matter if the damage happens over months or over night if its in equal level. 

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Happy Lizard

[Vrubel]

@Happy Lizard You can't apply traditional Western ideas of morality to a conflict such as this. Hamas (and by extension all the Palestinians who support them) do not even remotely play by the same rules.

[Happy Lizard]

@Vrubel Hamas are terrorists thats my stance. We can see that form a far yet for the people on the ground, how do you know that they are not under a propaganda? Have you seen any documentaries on north Korea ? These people makes you sad. 
 

You are trying to wake me out of western morality, but have you considered that Gazans are not living under a normal western-like society where you have the freedom and the necessary condition and education to refuse Hamas or choose a position ? In such societies you can not even see any other possibilities. This is not defending their position, nor do I believe that all Palestinians truly and unconditionally support Hamas. And I overall can very clearly see the evil of Hamas, but for the Gazans that don’t … is it just to kill them by the thousands? By this logic any country that is waring with north Korea has the right to wipe out all north Koreans, as there’s supposed very strong evidence that they all unconditionally support their leader.

no sane, developed and self restricted government should carry out a massacre like this. 

[Vrubel]

@Happy Lizard If you look at history, radicalized armies/governments/populations were always dealt with with a heavy hand. Just think of Dresden or Hiroshima. The Korean War is also a good example. However, it failed because of Chinese intervention and communists taking over in the North. Can you imagine if America fully won that war and all of Korea was free and wealthy like South Korea. 

To be honest I don't know if Palestinians can be compared to Germans, Japanese or Koreans because they have their own unique situation and a level of development far below the aforementioned groups. Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.   

[Karmadhi]

@Vrubel You take out Hamas the way I showed you above.

Your logic is basically saying that in order for Palestinians to reform you need to kill tons of innocent people unecessary.

By that logic lets also wipe out Israel since they are also toxic radicals right now in power.

Retarted logic

Most people dying in Gaza are innocent and yet you defend their killings. I expected more humanity from this forum

Edited December 30, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Vrubel]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Your logic is basically saying that in order for Palestinians to reform you need to kill tons of innocent people unecessary.

Not to reform but to remove Hamas from power. I don't know how effective a denazification-like process in Gaza will be given their situation and level of development. Ideally, they will clean up their education system putting the focus on building up Gaza instead of destroying Israel. But on the other hand, Israel will never trust Gazans to work in Israel again or make use of their hospitals so their economic, social, and political situation will remain volatile.
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

By that logic lets also wipe out Israel since they are also toxic radicals right now in power.

These are two entirely different dimensions of radical. Despite everything, Netanyahu/Israel's government is a reasonable state actor bound to certain geopolitical realities.   
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Retarted logic

The logic of war: You overpower your enemy with the force of violence. If you don't want the consequences of war, don't start one. If Hamas surrenders today this war will be over immediately. But they don't, so they need to get overpowered. 
 

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Most people dying in Gaza are innocent and yet you defend their killings. I expected more humanity from this forum

Copy-paste* Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.   

People didn't call for a ceasefire while the Allies were advancing on Berlin. Even though Germans suffered much worse than Gazans. I used to be critical of the Allied bombing of German cities but I also realized that in the heat and tension of the war, you'll do everything to overpower the enemy and ultimately it was not the Allies that started the war.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Vrubel

[zazen]

1 hour ago, Vrubel said:

@Happy Lizard If you look at history, radicalized armies/governments/populations were always dealt with with a heavy hand. Just think of Dresden or Hiroshima. The Korean War is also a good example. However, it failed because of Chinese intervention and communists taking over in the North. Can you imagine if America fully won that war and all of Korea was free and wealthy like South Korea. 

To be honest I don't know if Palestinians can be compared to Germans, Japanese or Koreans because they have their own unique situation and a level of development far below the aforementioned groups. Consider that the alternative of Hamas staying in power in Gaza is worse than having this war. As destructive as this war is it will give the Palestinians a chance to obtain a healthy government that does not dehumanize them but looks after their basic needs and interests.   

That’s if we look at history, which is history. What happened after those heavy handed approaches in which atrocities happened? New institutions and standards were set to prevent them again. What would also be good to look at in history is what has the response been to bombing campaigns against terrorism. Has the war on terror for 20 years worked? A good article on that: https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/its-impossible-to-bomb-a-population-into-submission-and-obedience-ed33ec9447aa

What if Britian dealt with the IRA the way Israel is dealing with Hamas today? What if this war doesn’t make Israel any safer? Most sane people want Israel to be safe alongside Palestinians and to live with dignity and recognition. Ignore the extremes on both sides calling for the end of each other - that’s unrealistic and naive. It’s exaggerated when the Palestinian side equivocates Israel’s actions to the holocaust as is the Israeli side equivocating Hamas with Nazi/ISIS. 

Israel cant use the horrors of the Holocaust by weaponising and abusing the sympathy and grace of the world to commit present day atrocities or deny / distort reality. Genocide isn’t a event but a process, and a subset of genocide by the UN definition is ‘Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part’. Raz Segal who is a Israeli scholar on the Holocaust and genocide calls it as such.

Intent and incitement have been shown in varying statements from people who actually matter in the equation which are the prime minister, president and defence minister. I don’t even have to quote Ben Gvir, Smotrich or extremist settlers.

Bibi Netenyahu : invoking Almalek 

Isaac Herzog : “it is a entire nation out there that is responsible”

Yoav Gallant : “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed.”

A relevant post from two pages back: 

22 hours ago, zazen said:

It’s entirely possible that attempting to bomb ‘terrorism’ out of existence doesn’t always work and what we think is in our best interest (defence via war) isn’t. When Germany and Britain were bombing each other both populations rallied together for more resilience and resistance against it. As can be seen by the increased popularity in polls for Hamas today and what in Britain was known as the ‘Blitz spirit’ - a term to symbolise their resolve, resilience and national unity in the face of hardship caused by the Nazi’s blitz bombing campaign. If Israel say they don’t want a Palestinian state it’s ironic that bombing them only nationalises them further.

One can say ‘but look, the Nazi’s were defeated and there is peace now’ sure - but at what expense and what level of international acceptance at the time. Post WW2 institutions and foundational documents were created (UN, Geneva convention and universal declaration of human rights) to promote peace and equality, protect and sanctify life and persecute and prevent further war crimes and atrocities. The standard of what is acceptable has shifted. Which is why any explicit genocidal intent has to be discreet, subtle and slowly go under the radar.

Another point is the difference between Nazi’s/ISIS and Hamas that Israeli apologists knowingly equate to justify and gain support from the world. Nazi and ISIS are thrown in to label and link Hamas to toxic expansionist genocidal ideologies and unjust causes the world came together to fight. The former are globalist death cults whilst the latter a localised defensive resistance movement that yes - do employ terrorist tactics that should be persecuted equally as any other group. This isn’t a defense of Hamas, just analysis of the situation - analysis isn’t approval.

Something to understand about grassroots movements such as resistance on a homeland is that you can’t keep ‘mowing or cutting the grass’ to get rid of it - it needs to be uprooted from the soil. The grass (people) will keep on growing (resisting) unless totally defeated in morale through subjugation (harder for people of faith) or uprooted from their land (ethnically cleansed or genocided). Even if the motive isn’t to genocide but is only to ethnically cleanse/displace people - the inability to do so can out of frustration and desperation lead to genocide. Maybe in explicit ways (targeted killing) or indirect ways (make their land unliveable by systemic destruction - which has been stated).

At its best Israel may not be targeting civilians but they don’t care enough not to harm them in targeting Hamas - at its worst, Hamas aren’t the target but the excuse to cleanse and claim land Zionism has felt entitled to and aspired to - both in the name of ‘defence’ - a term used as a verbal shield for such actions which only the spear of good conscience and intelligence can penetrate.

 

[Vrubel]

13 minutes ago, zazen said:

It’s exaggerated when the Palestinian side equivocates Israel’s actions to the holocaust as is the Israeli side equivocating Hamas with Nazi/ISIS. 

It's not an exaggeration at all to equate Hamas with Nazis, they want to genocide Jews and committed ISIS-like atrocities against Israeli families, young women and girls. They are basically the Arab Nazis. 

This point alone skews your whole view of this situation. Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality. 

[Minini]

26 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

It's not an exaggeration at all to equate Hamas with Nazis, they want to genocide Jews and committed ISIS-like atrocities against Israeli families, young women and girls. They are basically the Arab Nazis. 

This point alone skews your whole view of this situation. Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality. 

You're completely dismissing the context of this whole thing. Nazi motivation comes from supremacy and egotism, while Hamas motivation comes from resistance to occupation..  

Violent supremacy should be dealt with violent response (war) to put everyone back in their place. That is when a war could be valid response. 

However, in the case of Hamas, radicalized victims should not be met with more violence because no matter what you do, they will still think you're the enemy and they will still think they are the victim. This victimization will get passed on from generation to generation until there is an acknowledgment. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Minini

[kenway]

 

20 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Your views are generally just too innocent, naive and idealistic for this harsh reality. 

It's actually the other way around.

You wouldn't say such things or hold such viewpoints if you knew for certain that you would reincarnate as Palestinian.

If you had to experience the life of every Palestinian from birth to death, your moral wisdom would be quasi-Messianic, to the extent you wouldn't want to hurt a fly.

You'd see the truth for how it really is.

 

[Vrubel]

36 minutes ago, Minini said:

radicalized victims should not be met with more violence

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution. 
 

33 minutes ago, kenway said:

You wouldn't say such things or hold such viewpoints if you knew for certain that you would reincarnate as Palestinian.

Look at 4K street walk videos of how Gaza looked like before the war and compare Palestine with neighboring Arab countries. Not everything is Israel's fault. Just look at how the people in Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Syria are struggling without a Jew insight.

If the Palestinians built something great in Gaza, like a peaceful, educated and wealthy society they would have been an inspiration to the world and Jews would have been much more open to even a one-state solution. But the reality is that the Jews don't even have enough trust for a two-state solution. Though in my opinion, that's still the best solution but will require some serious creativity. 
 

33 minutes ago, kenway said:

If you had to experience the life of every Palestinian from birth to death, your moral wisdom would be quasi-Messianic, to the extent you wouldn't want to hurt a fly.

You'd see the truth for how it really is.

I will also reincarnate as a Nazi, so Nazis should be left alone.

 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Vrubel

[Minini]

4 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution.
 

well done responding with a strawman ... sure their homeland after 2000 years, shall we all go invade Africa? 

 Looks like you have been downplaying most opponent views here calling them naive and you're the smart one, so no point in responding to you anymore. 

 

 

[Devin]

1 minute ago, Minini said:

well done responding with a strawman ... sure their homeland after 2000 years, shall we all go invade Africa? 

 Looks like you have been downplaying most opponent views here calling them naive and you're the smart one, so no point in responding to you anymore. 

 

 

It's not even their(European Jews) homeland. That's like me taking on an old defunct East Asian religion and claiming Hong Kong for my cult.

[Raze]

 

[Raze]

20 minutes ago, Vrubel said:

Oh bohoo, those poor Isis Nazis. They should be left alone and do as many 7/10's as they wish. That will teach those oppressive white colonial Jews who dare to build a successful country in their own homeland after 2000 years of persecution. 
 

Look at 4K street walk videos of how Gaza looked like before the war and compare Palestine with neighboring Arab countries. Not everything is Israel's fault. Just look at how the people in Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Syria are struggling without a Jew insight.

If the Palestinians built something great in Gaza, like a peaceful, educated and wealthy society they would have been an inspiration to the world and Jews would have been much more open to even a one-state solution. But the reality is that the Jews don't even have enough trust for a two-state solution. Though in my opinion, that's still the best solution but will require some serious creativity. 
 

I will also reincarnate as a Nazi, so Nazis should be left alone.

 

Amazing how you think Palestinians are an inferior race, Jews are superior and therefore exempt from morality, and Israel is justified in ethnic cleansing for this reason, and somehow everyone else is the nazi. 

[Karmadhi]

2 hours ago, Vrubel said:

Despite everything, Netanyahu/Israel's government is a reasonable state actor bound to certain geopolitical realities.   

They have killed 2 times more civilians in 3 months from a population of 2.2 milion than Putin did in Ukraine with a population of 30 something milion in 2 years
If Putin is so bad how come BiBi has killed like 30 times more civilians per capita. Use common sense please.

If you compare the actual civilian death toll per capita the evil dictator Putin is a saint in comparison.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Karmadhi