New War In Israel / Gaza

[zazen]

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

It's astounding you don't realize that improving conditions in Gaza internally, creating a stable economy, clean water, trade partnerships, the paradise you speak of, etc. IS the most direct route to the Palestinians reaching full sovereignty. 

What's astounding is the level of arrogance and entitlement of Zionists. What gives them the right to afford Palestinians sovereignty and rights? Is it because their Gods chosen people? Imagine someone came into your house, kicked you down to your basement and didn't let you leave or come up to the kitchen for food or to the garden for a change of scenery and some sun - they then claim to you in your own house ''Show us you can behave well like a Pavlovian dog and develop yourself to the point we think you can have some of your house back'' And they invert and sophistically claim to be the victims and not the aggressors of the predicament they find themselves in.

Zionists frame it as Palestinians not being developed enough or behaving well enough to have rights granted to them when really its that they are impeded from developing and are preoccupied with first securing their fundamental rights. It's the dignity in them that resists that is then gaslighted as them not behaving well. I expect nothing less than for people to resist despite what spiral stage we colour code and paintball them with. This isn't a stage red or green thing but a human thing.

If even a ant or animals resist to survive unwanted death then what of humans who have the conscience to be aware of their undignified treatment, oppression, being taken advantage of through unviable peace proposals and impending conditions of death imposed on them? There's nothing confusing about resistance, in fact it would be confusing for anyone not to. It would be a case study for such a alien reaction or lack of if no resistance occurred. 

The whole framing of the situation is such that Zionists will deny and obfuscate the reality as complicated when it is anything but. Terms like settler colonialism, occupation or apartheid incite a allergic reaction to the ideologically captured zionist ego because they know that in a post-colonial, post-apartheid world any moral or legal ground is lost for their cause and any subsequent reasoning from accepting the reality of those terms is de-legitimised. I can agree that what is complicated is how to get out of this situation with entrenched interests on both sides benefiting from it, but it's definitely not complicated who is the more aggrieved party that is wronged.

I won't resign my moral conscience to a detached enlightenment and moral relativity from some lofty place in the clouds. As Ram Dass said, part of the spiritual journey is honouring the form we are in, being human and getting into the humaness of experience. Understanding all sides is different from standing with all of them - plurality doesn't mean neutrality and in this case, it is clear who stands as the wronged side.

1 hour ago, hundreth said:

This is akin to acknowledging there is a direct way forward to peace, but because of pride and a sense of righteousness the Palestinians should instead engage in an endless resistance war which only leads to pain and bloodshed on both sides.

Israel had its chance to show them they mean peace and good faith - but they failed. Because of their pride and righteousness what did they do with the Palestinians in the West Bank who 'behaved' better and 'developed' relatively more than their Gazan counterparts? Were they rewarded like Pavlovian dogs even the most fundamental rights or the beginnings of any sovereignty for their good behaviour?

Sure, maybe some scraps off the table such as work permits - doubtedly coming from any place of benevolence but more so only to benefit Israel's own economy to access some needed labor and keep the world off their back by being seen as 'doing something' to help.

Instead they got settlement expansion and settler violence increasing to such degrees that any sovereignty becomes almost impossible. So why would Gazan's think they would get something by behaving and developing if on the contrary when they look over to the West Bank they see a clear indication that 'behaving and developing' leads to nothing except the opposite.

Edited December 15, 2023 by zazen

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, hundreth said:

It's astounding you don't realize that improving conditions in Gaza internally, creating a stable economy, clean water, trade partnerships, the paradise you speak of, etc. IS the most direct route to the Palestinians reaching full sovereignty. 

Yeah, but how do you do that when the place is so corrupt, poor, and murderous?

Full Palestinian sovereignty is exactly what the Israeli government is dead-set against. And hey, it's hard to blame them. You'd have to be a saint to give full sovereignty to a serial murderer sharpening his axe.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[hundreth]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yeah, but how do you do that when the place is so corrupt, poor, and murderous?

Full Palestinian sovereignty is exactly what the Israeli government is dead-set against. And hey, it's hard to blame them. You'd be nuts to give full sovereignty to a serial murderer sharpening his axe.

Agreed, it can't happen over night. Which is the main disagreement between @zazen and myself. He'd like to see Palestinians given everything they demand overnight with no conditions immediately. It makes zero sense. I'd like to see relationships develop over time. 

I feel we need a UN peacekeeping force in place for the foreseeable future, until funds reach their intended places, living conditions are improved, relationships and trade partnerships fostered, and a generational culture shift in place on both sides.

I believe in accountability on both sides. Israelis included, who will also require leadership and culture change.

[hundreth]

Quote

What's astounding is the level of arrogance and entitlement of Zionists. What gives them the right to afford Palestinians sovereignty and rights? Is it because their Gods chosen people? Imagine someone came into your house, kicked you down to your basement and didn't let you leave or come up to the kitchen for food or to the garden for a change of scenery and some sun - they then claim to you in your own house ''Show us you can behave well like a Pavlovian dog and develop yourself to the point we think you can have some of your house back'' And they invert and sophistically claim to be the victims and not the aggressors of the predicament they find themselves in.

I'm not going to respond to your entire self righteous and sanctimonious essay. This is how you frame the entire conflict, and that's unfortunate. I don't frame it the same way.

Jews migrated to Palestine, population shifts happen. Jews are no more occupiers in Palestine than Mexicans migrating to the United States. They purchased land legally. You can point to isolated quotes from Zionist leaders with nefarious purposes out of context, but it doesn't change the fact that Jews never forcibly removed Palestinians from their lands before the UN resolution, and the arabs declaring war against the Jews. This isn't the minority report, you can't convict Jews based on the thoughts or isolated quotes from certain Zionists.

Once war breaks out, things happen. I know it makes you upset, but the Palestinians LOST the war. THEY LOST. Now you want to behave as though Israelis are "arrogant" because they hold all the cards. F that. 

[Karmadhi]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67600015

Apparently Israel crimes continue  

Taking innocent people hostage is only a crime when Hamas does it, not when Israel does it.

@Leo Gura So much for Israel being "democratic".

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

So much for Israel being "democratic".

It is democratic. Democracies do plenty of war crimes.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Karmadhi]

@jaylimix Firstly it is quite sad and unfortunate that leftists that are pro peace got killed like that.

But i have a few issues with the video:

1. How would Hamas and whoever did bad things there know that beforehand? Maybe they though they were hardcore Zionists that support Israel brutalizing Palestine, the way many have. Did they have proof that the people they were killed were peace lovers? 

2. She is ignoring the fact that the area where she lived was stolen by Israel. Israel pulling out of Gaza is not "a favour". The whole area she lived is stolen land and of course people will be angry about it.  I notice Israelis tend to think the land belongs to them and then question why the Palestinians hate them. Until they go back to the 1947 borders do not be suprised that Palestinians will be angry at you. Pulling out of Gaza is not enough. 

3. You cannot say 2.2 million people are guilty because of what a few hundred did. It is absurd. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Karmadhi]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It is democratic. Democracies do plenty of war crimes.

A democracy treats everyone equal. Israel does not. Hence it is an oppressive racist regime that is only democratic for Jews. I do not see Sweden or Canada do such things. Arresting people that are anti Israel looks democratic to you? What is democratic to you? Just doing elections? Russia also does that. Does not mean anything.

Israel is not at war with West Bank so it is not a war crime. It is  human right abuse that has been going on there for decades. Not much different from how countries like China oppress their minorities.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

@zazen Why the palestinians were never had a state of their own for hunderds of years? I think this is because they are always want "all or nothing", they are always with vitcim mentality and they also have too much self condraticting forces within them. Really they have a problem with their thinking patterns. The main fault is not some demon outside, but within them. 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

Just now, Nivsch said:

Why the palestinians were never had a state of their own for hunderds of years? I think this is because they always want "all or nothing", they always with vitcim mentality and have too much self condraticting forces. Really they have a problem in their thinking habit.

Why have Jews been hated for millenia by most of the world? Maybe also they have a problem with how they act? See how racist your logic is.

[Nivsch]

5 minutes ago, Karmadhi said:

Why have Jews been hated for millenia by most of the world? Maybe also they have a problem with how they act? See how racist your logic is.

Jews also have their unique disadvantages!

Yes. Everyone have.

[Nivsch]

There is nothing racist in saying a person (or a collective group) has problems with how he or she percieves himself or herself and other people intentions about him/her. The same problem can be expressed in a collective way too, and every collective group has its own weaknesses and strengths. I am not saying the Jews are better, but they just have weaknesses in other places.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

2 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

There is nothing racist in saying a person (or a collective group) has problems with how he or she percieve him or herself and other people intentions about him/her. The same problem can be expressed in a collective way and every collective group has its own weaknesses and strengths. I am not saying the Jews are better, but they just have weaknesses in other places.

Ok when you put it in that way then we can agree.

You seem the most open of the Israelis, I think if everyone was like you the conflict would have hope of being solved.

I have seen countless horrible videos of Israeli childreen in classrooms being brainwashed into thinking Arabs are evil and secularism is bad. Also seen plenty of people celebrating over Isarel destroying Gaza (even before the terrorist attacks) and other stuff like this. Also videos of some settlers saying "it is our right to take whatever we want here because we are the chosen ones". Such people combined with the right wing government there at the moment make things seem difficult to improve towards peace. I do not know though how common people with such views are.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Karmadhi

[Nivsch]

Part of solving the problem is very much have to go through a therapuetic-spiritual attitude (customized personally to every side's weaknesses and obstacles to growth) not less than a geopolitical one.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[Karmadhi]

4 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

Part of solving the problem is very much have to go through a therapuetic-spiritual attitude (customized personally to every side weaknesses and obstacles to growth) not less than a geopolitical one

How could you do that? I do not understand.

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi I really don't know to say how it can be done practically except that this is the insight I started to feel about this issue. The spiral dynamics strategy for example has already tried to be implemented, but it is still not a broad or deep enough strategy by itself, if we assume that stages are not the only factor but also cultural qualities and dominant psychological barriers which are unique to every culture.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

A democracy treats everyone equal.

Bahahahahaha....

[Raze]

A cnn journalist got into Gaza 

 

[Leo Gura]

You guys are gonna have a field day with the latest CNN news.

God help us all.

[Nivsch]

@Karmadhi Actually the education I went through was quite pluralistic and about respecting others and differences. Yes of course we have learned also about our enemies and etc but only in the sense that Israel went through wars and peace agreements, but not about that anyone is evil or that we have to eliminate someone. Not at all.

I can't say there aren't schools that teach more fanatic ideas as you mentioned, but I think they represent a minority. If you can send me the links and I will watch and relate.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Nivsch