New War In Israel / Gaza

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

People here cannot even agree when I call hamas a "virus". They insist they are people! Thats what important right now in their eyes.

So you expect them to admit a truth in a five sentences length explanation? A waste of time.

   I merely said HAMAs were people one time mate. Okay, I'll call them humans or freedom fighters then. Also, why call them a virus? They don't resemble anything like a virus, from the robotic structure to RNA capable of changing the DNA coding of the cell the virus infects. If HAMAs were viruses we'd be in serious trouble, like Israel would be overrun by copies of HAMAs all over the place, even other Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Turkey, much of Iraq and Iran, the whole middle east, an actual human sized virus is a big existential threat to humanity and the world. Not sure HAMAs is on that level of existential crisis of the world.

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

55 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@zazen Don't run from constructive critisism and return it back onto me even if it sounds a bit edgy to you, and rather confront the claims directly. The explanation about the virus vs bacteria sounds serious in your opinion?

Insisting hamas are "people" and "not a virus" is a symptom to a bigger problem here. Thats because of the need one feels to deffend hamas terrorists even if done only through teminology this is very problematic.

I am not saying you did that and maybe I had to respond directly to the one who did it and anyway there is nothing personal here.

Camp david message is quite long I will answer to this. Netanyahu is also to blame in the fact he have let hamas get stronger as a purpose strategy to avoid negotiation with the palestinian authority.

   But you ran from his criticism first?

   Why would some insist calling HAMAs 'people' and not a 'virus'? Have you heard of the terms dehumanization, demonization and thought terminating cliches? By calling a human group a 'virus' knowing that most society hate viruses and illness, and not 'people' or 'human' you created a psychological distancing and disassociation, you just made people feel disgust and more hatred for HAMAs and other groups like them, which makes negotiations with them harder when you think of them as 'viruses' and not 'people'. In fact Nazi Germany did just that, slowly ramped up anti-semitic, making the population associate their fall with the Jews, make the Jews less 'human', and less of a 'people', and more of a 'virus' to get rid of.

[Merkabah Star]

27 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Merkabah Star 

hamas terrorists as a virus analogy is correct.

Nobody said that word about palestinians.

Don't gaslight please.

Not gonna reduce myself to your message's level 🙂

What you deem as Hamas and Palestinians seems blurred to me, I’ve been reading this thread from the start. So yes, your virus concept is not exclusive to the terrorist group. You don’t fool me. 

[Danioover9000]

@Nivsch

33 minutes ago, Nivsch said:

@Merkabah Star 

hamas terrorists as a virus analogy is correct.

Nobody said that word about palestinians.

Don't gaslight please.

Not gonna reduce myself to your message's level 🙂

   Fine, keep that metaphor and analogy for you. I'll restore balance to be fair, I'll agree that HAMAs are viruses, and Israel is a parasite in that region, living off of land they colonized, pissing off HAMAs but much of the Islam world in that region, fair enough?

Edited December 9, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Merkabah Star]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Nivsch

   Fine, keep that metaphor and analogy for you. I'll restore balance to be fair, I'll agree that HAMAs are viruses, and Israel is a parasite in that region, living off of land they colonized, fair enough?

He throws out the virus word to deflect emotionally from the fact Israel is killing thousands of innocent children and adults, so he justifies it, like the nazis did with the Jews, by making them subhuman. All blame for children and civilians dying is put on the virus only. Israel are the victim. And like any virus it spreads fast. So it’s not just the terrorists, it’s the parents of the dead children for not teaching them to love Israel, then they are deemed part of the virus. 
 

this is a genocide. Labelling people a virus is genocidal and just fuels the bloodbath. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Merkabah Star

5 minutes ago, Merkabah Star said:

He throws out the virus word to deflect emotionally from the fact Israel is killing thousands of innocent children and adults, so he justifies it, like the nazis did with the Jews, by making them subhuman. All blame for children and civilians dying is put on the virus only. Israel are the victim. And like any virus it spreads fast. So it’s not just the terrorists, it’s the parents of the dead children for not teaching them to love Israel, then they are deemed part of the virus. 
 

this is a genocide. Labelling people a virus is genocidal and just fuels the bloodbath. 

 

   Yes it can be. It's a combination of dehumanizing, scape goat, and playing the race or the victim card here.

   I think at best it's just being bad faith, straw manning and misrepresenting by negative generalization. And to be fair, if he calls them names or starts demonizing, while we're all talking and conversing at least, and at most debating/arguing then it's justifiable to reflect that bad faith. Or remain good faith. Yes, it's partly 'genocidal', but more likely it's just dehumanization, and negative stereotyping and caricature. It's like we can't get anti-semitic here and that's okay, but then the other side gets to be Islamophobic and negatively stereotype Palestinians and Muslims?  

[kenway]

1 minute ago, Merkabah Star said:

He throws out the virus word to deflect emotionally from the fact Israel is killing thousands of innocent children and adults, so he justifies it, like the nazis did with the Jews, by making them subhuman. All blame for children and civilians dying is put on the virus only. Israel are the victim. And like any virus it spreads fast. So it’s not just the terrorists, it’s the parents of the dead children for not teaching them to love Israel, then they are deemed part of the virus. 
 

this is a genocide. Labelling people a virus is genocidal and just fuels the bloodbath. 

 

 

I agree with this. 

There is clearly a mass delusion going on right now where many political zionists simply cannot accept the notion that they are now "the bad guys".

But what Israel is doing right now is truly one of the most evil things that we, as human beings, have ever done. And because of that, Israel will ultimately collapse. Not because of any rockets, or missiles, or guns or tanks...but for the weight of it's own heartbreak when it realises what it has done to its own brothers and sisters.

You will drown by the tears of your own remorse.

[Lila9]

1 hour ago, Merkabah Star said:

as for @Lila9 your posts are so whiney and flat now it’s impossible to reply to them. 

You just have no response because you know I'm correct. For you it's easier to attack me personally by saying that I'm whiney and flat rather than responding to the matter. Gotcha.

[Merkabah Star]

4 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

You just have no response because you know I'm correct. For you it's easier to attack me personally by saying that I'm whiney and flat rather than responding to the matter. Gotcha.

No. I just have standards. Yeah. 😀

[Lila9]

5 hours ago, Nivsch said:

Exactly. And they are complaining we want to put an end to hamas while sitting in their (yet) safe home at the foot of the mountain from which they just moralize and throw instructions to Israel and to the 20 yo half-kids who are risking their lives right now. How low of a behaviour and how low self awareness.

Lol, their perception is indeed comes from ignorance and lack of real life experience of the conflict. All the info they gather is from biased X accounts. Intresting.

[Merkabah Star]

I’m sure most people commenting on this thread have been calling out Israel for human rights violations and this occupation issue for some time. It’s not their first rodeo. 

[Nivsch]

42 minutes ago, Lila9 said:

Lol, their perception is indeed comes from ignorance and lack of real life experience of the conflict. All the info they gather is from biased X accounts. Intresting.

I would never dare to demonize an entire society without even visiting there and hearing its people firsthand, not to cherry pick some Rabi or an extreme leftist. This is just a matrix of stories and images in the mind of the demonizer without knowing how far it is from reality. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by Nivsch

[Merkabah Star]

Quote

Israelis aren't seeing the devastating pictures Australians see from the war in Gaza. They're watching a sanitised war

This is the tale of two wars. 

There are two wars going on in Gaza right now — the one the Israeli public is watching and the one the rest of the world is watching.

Each evening, Israelis are sitting down to watch their prime-time television news programs to see what happened that day in this war.

And each evening, the pattern is much the same — night after night pictures of Israeli soldiers walking through streets of Gaza; Israeli tanks driving across fields in Gaza; interviews with families of hostages taken by Hamas on October 7; a military progress update by Israel's Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari.

There will rarely, if ever, be a picture of a Palestinian. If there is, it will likely be a picture of a Hamas commander. The Palestinians portrayed are terrorists, not civilians who are victims. Watching Hebrew-language TV at night over recent weeks, I've never seen a Palestinian victim of Israel's attack on Gaza.

It's the whole Israeli media, not just television. The newspapers – with the exception of Ha'aretz – are much the same. Thursday's edition of the mass-selling centre-right Yedioth Ahronoth, for example, had page after page on the war – I counted 50 war-related pictures of Israelis, including seven on page 1.

There was one picture of a Palestinian – Hamas commander Yahya Sinwar.

And social media – as social media does around the world – gives Israelis the feeds they want.

All of which means that most Israelis do not see pictures of injured Palestinian women and children or the destruction of Gaza into kilometre after kilometre of rubble to the point where it will be difficult to rebuild it.

They will rarely if ever see a child trapped in that rubble, or a mother carrying her dead baby. They don't see the screaming children, or the toddlers who cannot open their eyes.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-10/israel-gaza-media-watching-a-sanitised-war/103206528

 

 

[ArcticGong]

 

Lying has consequences. 

[kenway]

 

[kenway]

4 hours ago, kenway said:

@Nivsch Please could you translate what this IDF solider is saying? I'm genuinely interested in his perspective. (For balance etc).

 

 

 

@Nivsch

To be clear: I genuinely would like to know what this guy is saying. Please don't take my tone too salty. You and I disagree, but you are still my brother.

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, zazen said:

If Palestinians are stage red - barbaric, unreasonable and stupid like you say then why even try reasoning with them in the first place? Just give them a state and let them be. Their so stupid and dysfunctional their country will never become powerful enough to threaten Israel anyway rite?

That's some awful logic.

If you allow Stage Red, they will conquer you like Hitler or the Mongol hoards. The only thing stopping them is their own incompetence and disorganization. By giving them a state you enable them to organize. This is why ISIS was not allowed to have a state. Terrorists will keep organizing if you don't stop them.

Edited December 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[zazen]

58 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's some awful logic.

If you allow Stage Red, they will conquer you like Hitler or the Mongol hoards. The only thing stopping them is their own incompetence and disorganization. By giving them a state you enable them to organize. This is why ISIS was not allowed to have a state. Terrorists will keep organizing if you don't stop them.

I wrote that tongue in cheek but relating it to the current conflict:

What differentiates a terrorist from a resistance group that uses terrorist tactics? What enables the existence of terrorists to even organise in the first place?

I can understand having to stop a group that are expansionist in their aspirations but what of a group who’s aspiration is localised to their native land and resisting occupation of it?

I think a nuanced distinction can be made between a native territorial dispute and a conquest of empire with expansionist ambitions.

The difference is in intent being one of a local resistance vs globalist conquest (which is what Hitler, Mongols and ISIS were)

What I wrote following that from the post is below for further context:

“In order to deal with barbarians you need to embody some of their values because they are incapable of embodying some of your 'higher' ones. They don't have rationality but have the law of the jungle which is that they respect strength and ruthlessness. And so you become what you despise and what your higher values go against in busying yourself in dealing with them - so why not leave them be rather than complain about them resisting when you pin them down to the floor through occupation, siege and blockade. 

I expect nothing less than for people to resist despite what spiral stage we colour code and paintball them with. Even a ant resists in order to survive. If animals resist to survive unwanted death then what of humans who have the conscience to be aware of their undignified treatment, oppression, being taken advantage of through unviable peace proposals and impending conditions of death imposed on them? There's nothing confusing about resistance, in fact it would be confusing for anyone not to. It would be a case study for such an alien reaction or lack of reaction if no resistance occurred.

It is probably in Israel's best interest to not take their cue from how America has dealt with the war on terror through bombardments. A chihuahua can't learn and act like the Pitbull it aspires to be. America has a geography blessed with vast seas on its sides, a ally to its North and a weak nation to its South that insulates it from its foreign adventures. It can go around bombarding regions and barely have any repercussion, in fact Europe bears the brunt of the cost via the refugee crises caused by these Wars.

However Israel acting that way endangers it in a way America acting that way doesn't. Israel sits by itself in a angered region. Israel's actions have enraged the global south and even domestic Westerners (its own allied nations). Even Western media outlets critique Israels actions as they are unable to keep up with propaganda that gets shred by the advent of social media and alternative media. Their are limits to Americas interests - they can't just bankroll the expulsion of 2.3million people and destruction of their homes with the current technology that allows the world to see it and Israel can't afford to lose America and its domestic support either.”

Edited December 10, 2023 by zazen

[Danioover9000]

@ArcticGong

2 hours ago, ArcticGong said:

 

Lying has consequences. 

   Appears Piers Morgan is weird, lying to our ears. Hear me now, this is propaganda, props pagan dads for false worship, would've swapped a for e for agenda.

   Feel this dear, between the ears, let the truth sear yo brain in this pyre, up here, to send ashes down the morgue with a spear.

   

[Nivsch]

@kenway Just a stupid soldier. Don't have to pay attention to everyone.