Here's why is impossible to be "bored" or craving artificial stimulation if you Awake

[Osaid]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Don't you have the feeling that there is more, that something is hidden?

You can only imagine or think that something is hidden. Even the idea of "hiding" things is a human convention. The universe has no feature where it can hide things from you. Either you're aware of it or you're not.

There is nothing to guess or hypothesize in experience. There is just thinking about experience. 

Your experience can't hide anything from you. But this also doesn't mean you know experience. Experience can't be known, it can only be experienced.

The medium of "knowing" is insufficient for reaching or making contact with experience.

Ask yourself: How can experience hide something from you? How would you even go about doing that? What would that even look like?

You can't not be yourself. You can't hide from yourself, because you are you.

This doesn't mean that there is an "end" or "conclusion" to experience, this is impossible because experience is infinite. But experience is always explicit by definition. It's always accessible to you, because you are it.

I'm really feeling the limits of language typing all of this out, lol.
 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Osaid

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

I do too. Alright, so if enlightened humans exist here in physical form, they presumably also have a brain, and this brain looks like something. Now, it just so happens that a part of the brain called the Default Mode Network works as a good indicator for whether a person is enlightened or not. This shouldn't be a hugely problematic issue. It's just like looking at other behaviors we think are correlated with enlightenment. For example, how enlightened you are correlates with how many Rolls Royces you have

Osho would agree LOL.

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Osaid said:

This doesn't mean that there is an "end" or "conclusion" to experience

You don't understand what Im saying. I'm not operating in the conceptual mind, I'm in the real experience, but deepen in it. The experience is not just stop thinking and interpreting, that's the first step. The experience gets deep in itself. 

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Osaid said:

Your experience can't hide anything from you

There in not my experience, just the experience, and it's hiding something: the fact of being an experience is just appearance, and the you a fiction. But not the conceptual you, the you who is a perceptor. It's being created by the appearance, so it's just apparent. But let's see, just starting to see, maybe I'm wrong

Edited August 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Yimpa]

Sorry to sound blunt, but THIS is all GOD

[integral]

11 hours ago, Osaid said:

Experientially, for me, it was like my experience, or mind, became much more "lighter" or clearer or lucid. Kind of like some slight brain fog lifted that I never noticed before. Just for example, when I go in public, it just feels like my experience is so smooth and free, whereas before I was constantly being attacked by other people's perceptions and thoughts (which were actually just my own).

Right before that, I did have this realization, which was like "ohhh ok, so that's why it seems like my thoughts are connected to this experience." I didn't notice it at the time, it just felt like normal contemplation, but I think when I understood this insight is probably when it actually happened.

I will say, my sleep and energy levels have improved dramatically as well. I don't have to think all the time anymore. Thinking all the time seriously disrupts your sleep and energy levels. You cannot sleep properly if you cannot stop thinking. It's like putting your computer on "sleep" instead of shutting it down completely.

Basically, what I actually realized was this: Time, future, past, regrets, obligations, responsibilities, etc. <<<< These are all just thoughts. They have NOTHING to do with your experience, at all.

So what's happening when you identify with thought is:

+1

I think its possible to still have thoughts connected to this experience and have it weight you down while not identifying with it conceptually but your identifying with it experientially. 

With sickness of the body, negative attributes come with it that are not within ones control to experience. So what your referencing to as enlightenment is a state your experiencing that is non-identifying with what is arising, but enlightenment is not a specific state of being because states of being are constantly changing. Doe the non-resistance state your experiencing is ideal.

What does the ego want? a fixed ideal state of being... lol

Quote

Basically, what I actually realized was this: Time, future, past, regrets, obligations, responsibilities, etc. <<<< These are all just thoughts. They have NOTHING to do with your experience, at all

Realization vs having a integrated experience of does realizations might be different. 

100% of the time when someone says "I became enlightened" they are talking about a new state they are experiencing. But arent all states enlightenment, just some states are more enlightened then others? lmao

Also i think its possible to have realizations with out experiencing the integrated state of it. 

---

So your saying is Leo sober state is not enlightened, but hes is enlightened conceptually. 

Not everyone has a healthy body that allows for a ideal sober state that walks on air. But maybe thats the key to curing Leos health issues, sober non-resistance.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by integral

[Breakingthewall]

You are defining enlightenment as the state of a 4-year-old child, or that of a cat. that is to be free of the human ego, the first step, but after that you remain trapped in the experience

[UnbornTao]

On 8/20/2023 at 11:41 PM, Carl-Richard said:

I do too. Alright, so if enlightened humans exist here in physical form, they presumably also have a brain, and this brain looks like something. Now, it just so happens that a part of the brain called the Default Mode Network works as a good indicator for whether a person is enlightened or not. This shouldn't be a hugely problematic issue. It's just like looking at other behaviors we think are correlated with enlightenment. For example, how enlightened you are correlates with how many Rolls Royces you have

Let's get enlightened first and avoid speculation.

Edited August 24, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Yimpa]

Beautiful Serenity 

[Osaid]

7 hours ago, integral said:

I think its possible to still have thoughts connected to this experience and have it weight you down while not identifying with it conceptually but your identifying with it experientially. 

There is no identifying anymore. It's just seen as a useless input, and thus you never engage with it again. There are still thoughts. But they have nothing to do with "you" or "experience", it's just a subset of experience.

This idea of "identifying" is always NOT experience, it is just an idea or thought. You can literally make this aspect of reality which you call "identity" vanish forever, and reality will still operate perfectly fine, and YOU will operate perfectly fine, because you are not an idea or identity. 

There are of course unpleasant aspects to experience, but they have nothing to do with you anymore, and they are neither negative or positive, as those are judgments created from thought. 

7 hours ago, integral said:

But arent all states enlightenment, just some states are more enlightened then others? lmao

No. Only when you're enlightened do all your states have "enlightenment." Otherwise, it just exists as an idea for you.

This is a really tricky point, because I know that there is this popular saying of "all states are enlightenment", and this is kind of true, because enlightenment is literally what you are, but if you have not recontextualized your experience and realized what you are, there is no enlightenment for you experientially. Everyone can become enlightened, because enlightenment is what you are and it is always true, however, there is a period where you are unenlightened, and this is very real. It is kind of paradoxical, it is like an optical illusion where you can switch from one image to the other. Although two people might be viewing the same image (truth), one can experience it in one way (enlightenment) and the other can experience it in a different way (unenlightenment). Enlightenment is just a recontextualization of what everyone is experiencing. So, everything stays the exact same, but it is viewed differently, this is what the quote "all states are enlightenment" means. It is always in your experience for you to view, if you just take the time to observe it carefully. 

Otherwise, you are not enlightened, unless some drug forces you to be enlightened temporarily, but then that would not be all states, just drug-induced states.

Enlightenment is a specific psychological recontextualization which permanently changes your experience forever and prevents you from misinterpreting thoughts, or your experience, ever again.

It has nothing to do with logic or reason. It's not some philosophy or some theoretical way of looking at things that I have to think about and integrate. It was an immediate and permanent recontextualization. It's just dropping all thoughts about yourself, and realizing "Oh ok I didn't need any of those, they were redundant." Then your brain never engages with unnecessary thoughts again, because it just sees it as a useless input. It's like having two tabs of experience open, and then closing the extra tab because it's wasting space and causing you to lag.

7 hours ago, integral said:

So your saying is Leo sober state is not enlightened, but hes is enlightened conceptually. 

Not quite. He becomes enlightened or simulates enlightenment when altering his brain chemistry. But, when it wears off, it's back to non-enlightenment. "Real" enlightenment is a very specific insight which prevents you from being susceptible to delusions induced by thought forms forever, no matter what state you are experiencing.

You can't perceive past or future if you're on some psychedelic which removes your ability to perceive the past or future, for example. And then this would force you to be enlightened temporarily. But, it is possible to just permanently recontextualize all your experiences in this way, without needing a drug to induce it first. The psychedelic removes the parts of existence which "trigger" you into non-enlightenment. That's why it often has to put you through ego death first before it shows you anything.

There is a singular recontextualization (enlightenment), which just prevents any thought forms from tricking you ever again, without the need for altering your experience itself through drugs. It just applies to all experience forever. This is enlightenment.

The psychedelic is removing certain functions of "yourself" and preventing you from perceiving it by changing your brain chemistry, and then this might allow you to see some temporary state of enlightenment while on that drug. When it wears off, all your "normal" perceptions come back, but because you aren't enlightened (you haven't had this specific insight/recontextualization), you start misinterpreting these perceptions again.

I elaborate more on this point in this post:

6 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

but after that you remain trapped in the experience

Experience has no feature where it can "trap" itself. This is thought form and ego.

What does "trapped" look like? Can you point to it?

Quote

You are defining enlightenment as the state of a 4-year-old child, or that of a cat

No. I am defining it as the state of everything, which can be realized through a psychological recontextualization of your current experience.

Furthermore, the cat does not have the capacity to turn itself unenlightened. Humans do. A cat has no idea of "enlightenment" in its head. Unenlightenment is a human phenomenon caused by the capacity to think excessively.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Osaid

[Breakingthewall]

13 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Experience has no feature where it can "trap" itself. This is thought form and ego

No, it's real. you can get out of the appearance of human experience and realize that you are the cosmos, and beyond, the flowing infinity, and still beyond, the absolute void, immutable. that is imo the ultimate reality and it is not experience because it does not happen, it is. This is not definable nor can you remember it, it is something that you recognize yourself in when it is shown, even a second is enlightenment.

what I want to say is that the opening to the now is the first and fundamental step. the exit of the mental flow bubble, aka suffering. Now is when you can start doing a real spiritual work, fast, beautiful. Now is when a little of lsd works wonders. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Let's get enlightened. Everything else that we have about it is seriously BS.

Let's also do science and make technologies and tools that help people become enlightened.

[integral]

@Osaid Before or after enlightenment there is pain just like there is social anxiety, everything is still arising. All attributes of the experience are the same except its not identified with so its not negative or positive, but it is still happening.

You can cry over your mothers death and be enlightened at the same time, because the ego does not disappear.

A disappearing ego is a spiritual ego that is Recontextualizing all its experiences. The end result is you get robots like non-dual zombies lol

Are you going to cry when your mother dies or are you to enlightened now?  

Edited August 21, 2023 by integral

[Osaid]

1 hour ago, integral said:

Before or after enlightenment there is pain just like there is social anxiety, everything is still arising. All attributes of the experience are the same except its not identified with so its not negative or positive, but it is still happening.

No, social anxiety legitimately stops existing forever. You can't perceive it anymore.

Pain is different, though. There is pain, because pain is an experience, not thought. Didn't deny this.

1 hour ago, integral said:

A disappearing ego is a spiritual ego that is Recontextualizing all its experiences. The end result is you get robots like non-dual zombies lol

Disappearing ego is just realizing that your experience doesn't exist in thoughts. Ego is a thought or perception that says "I exist in thoughts."

You don't need ego or identities to love and be emotional. Love and emotions exist on their own. There is just a feeling of happiness, and you think "I want to share this feeling with everyone." It's not about "you" anymore, it's just about everyone or all of existence. Ego constricts love because it isn't love, it muddles the experience of love and gets in the middle of it. The ego is a misperception which causes you to think that limiting your love is the best thing to do.

In the same way that you don't need ego to love the flavour of ice cream, the love of ice cream is just your experience of the flavour of ice cream, not anything else. The experience of taste is not ego, and it has nothing to do with anything other than itself, it is just experience. That's it. The color red has nothing to do with anything other than the color of red. Same goes for love and all the rest. 

Love, taste, touch, excitement, etc. are not ego, they have nothing to do with ego, they are all experiences, and experience is infinite. All the psychology which normally constricts these experiences comes to an end, and then what you actually are just flourishes naturally, and then that is enlightenment.

Non-dual zombies sounds like what you get with psychedelics, with all these weekly solipsism threads, lol.

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by Osaid

[UnbornTao]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:04 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Let's also do science and make technologies and tools that help people become enlightened.

Not likely.

Again, we don't know what it is. Let's not presume that awakening is X or Y, remain open and contemplate.

Think of infinity. Mind can't think infinity. All it will come up with is "lots and lots." That's my main point.

This matter is not graspable. No tool or technology will solve that dilemma.

They are different matters. Inventions are relative and have an influence on that domain -- perception and experience.

The realization of the absolute is untouchable by anything you can think of. It's like trying to wake oneself up by drinking coffee within a dream.

Why hasn't an enlightenment pill been invented throughout human history?

It's you. Intermediaries are not direct.

Edited August 24, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Javfly33]

On 20/8/2023 at 10:48 PM, UnbornTao said:

I don't place that much importance on teachers and teachings. By necessity, I investigate from scratch. You're projecting here.

Well, if it's a conclusion, it is a grounded one. Are you perhaps angry because enlightenment ideals are being threatened by that assertion?

I haven't said I'm enlightened. As most people in the "spiritual" terrain, I'm talking out of my ass: from hearsay, impressions, beliefs, and in this case, from the memory of a couple glimpses.

Survival and truth are completely different pursuits. The truth is useless. And there are no requisites to awakening. The only thing you need is getting you. Luckily, you are already you. Consciousness is needed.

I'm not talking about an ideal. What I'm saying here has been verified in my experience.

You guys could have an open mind and actually benefit from what I'm sharing.

Or not... I have enough to deal in my path, so not going to push anyone to pursuit anything that he doesn't want.

Buuuut...is a pity that if life does have the possibility to go much beyond what you have settled for, that you won't take advantage of that possibility.

But again, I might be a weird case. A lot of people seem to be satisfied with this type of enlightenment narrative. Is just falls so damn short of what is possible. So I can't help but call you guys out.

2 hours ago, integral said:

@Osaid Before or after enlightenment there is pain just like there is social anxiety, everything is still arising. All attributes of the experience are the same except its not identified with so its not negative or positive, but it is still happening.

You can cry over your mothers death and be enlightened at the same time, because the ego does not disappear.

A disappearing ego is a spiritual ego that is Recontextualizing all its experiences.

The end result is you get robots like non-dual zombies lol

Are you going to cry when your mother dies or are you to enlightened now?  

 

[UnbornTao]

9 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I'm not talking about an ideal. What I'm saying here has been verified in my experience.

You guys could have an open mind and actually benefit from what I'm sharing.

Or not... I have enough to deal in my path, so not going to push anyone to pursuit anything that he doesn't want.

Buuuut...is a pity that if life does have the possibility to go much beyond what you have settled for, that you won't take advantage of that possibility.

But again, I might be a weird case. A lot of people seem to be satisfied with this type of enlightenment narrative. Is just falls so damn short of what is possible. So I can't help but call you guys out.

 

What has been verified? What are you conscious of?

What's enlightenment?

[Carl-Richard]

32 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Not possible. Again if we don't know what it is, it's best to remain open. 

Whatever mind thinks of enlightenment is utterly useless. It will remain as a conception, an idea, a fantasy, and perhaps as a possibility, too.

Mind can't think the infinite. All it will come up with is "lots and lots." Can you see how this matter is not graspable by the mind? No tool or technology will solve that dilemma. They are different matters. They're not in the same domain so to speak. Attempting to manipulate conditions undermines seeing them for what they are! There are no shortcuts and short-cuts are already too indirect and off-the-mark. Whatever is invented will only influence the relative domain, ie. your experience and perception. 

In other words, the realization of the absolute is untouchable by anything you can think of. It's like trying to wake oneself up by drinking coffee within a dream.

Science's job is intrinsically limited to perception and I don't know whether that will change at some point. How would experiments get made?

There's a reason why no enlightenment pill has been invented throughout human history. It's you, and nothing else. No intermediary is needed.

Contemplation and wonder.

You think meditation is not a technology or tool? Psychedelics? Transcranial magnetic stimulation for inducing flow states?

[UnbornTao]

50 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You think meditation is not a technology or tool? Psychedelics? Transcranial magnetic stimulation for inducing flow states?

A tool for what?

No practice, technology nor tool can possibly produce or lead to enlightenment. They can help calm, focus, open and master the mind, facilitating insights.

Contemplation is what you do while becoming conscious.

Edited August 21, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

38 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

A tool for what? No practice, technology nor tool can possibly produce enlightenment, only you. Again, direct. Contemplation is what you do while becoming conscious.  

I think very few people become enlightened without ever having engaged with various technologies or tools that were available. Even Sadhguru meditated regularly in his early years, even though his first awakening was rather spontaneous. Besides, whatever you're providing here in this conversation can be thought of as a tool as well. Science is just one way to provide better tools over time.

I think this is the very definition of Neo-Advaita: "there is no tool, no knowledge, no practice, no path that can take you there — only direct knowing of Yourself." It's of course a performative contradiction, because the very utterance of Neo-Advaitan words is a tool for making you gain insight into something, words said with a purpose to illuminate a path.

In reality, Neo-Advaita is only a particular language game that can help to prime certain insights in certain contexts for certain people, but if you take it as something more than a language game, you shouldn't be surprised if you find yourself stuck with no insights, no progress. There are many language games, many tools, and they can be helpful for different people at different times.

Edited August 21, 2023 by Carl-Richard