Wrong Insight: 'Nothing exists outside of MY mind' - Leo's Greatest Pitfall

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Yea spirituality misses SD yellow structure. It is so confusing. 

This problem is ubiquitous, even in academia. It's so often the case that you'll get different people using the same words for completely different things, especially the word "consciousness". It will probably always be this way to some degree, and the only way you can truly communicate across perspectives is by having in-depth conversations where all terms are investigated and acknowledged for what they are pointing to.

 

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Why is it hard for a spiritual teaching to make a scale from most easy awakening to most difficult awakening? Like first understand non duality, than understand solipsism and then understand alien consciousness.

There are many attempts at making meta-theoretical syntheses or summaries of many different perspectives everywhere. David Chalmers is a good example in metaphysics and ontology. Ken Wilber is a good example in Western and Eastern psychology. Ramaji wrote a book called "1000" that synthesizes different non-dual traditions. There is a lot out there, but they're also just their own perspectives, just one step up, so you'll always be stuck with different interpretations, and you'll always have the same problem of communicating beyond explicit terms.

 

4 hours ago, StarStruck said:

I do believe there are overarching principles in spirituality. These need to be defined and put together for students. Otherwise it is just a mishmash of ideas. It is no wonder that human spirituality is in such a dire state. 

The next best thing is to study different approaches and develop your own internal understanding of what is out there, and then you can try to inch other people towards that, despite working with imperfect tools. That applies to all of spiritual teaching anyway: language is always an imperfect tool for communicating the Absolute.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

Nonduality is a wave in a cesspool made by scurrying rats.

Do not corrupt my forum with your rat-waves.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[StarStruck]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Nonduality is a wave in a cesspool made by scurrying rats.

Do not corrupt my forum with your rat-waves.

Everything is a solipsistic dream though. 
 

6 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

This problem is ubiquitous, even in academia. It's so often the case that you'll get different people using the same words for completely different things, especially the word "consciousness". It will probably always be this way to some degree, and the only way you can truly communicate across perspectives is by having in-depth conversations where all terms are investigated and acknowledged for what they are pointing to.

 

There are many attempts at making meta-theoretical syntheses or summaries of many different perspectives everywhere. David Chalmers is a good example in metaphysics and ontology. Ken Wilber is a good example in Western and Eastern psychology. Ramaji wrote a book called "1000" that synthesizes different non-dual traditions. There is a lot out there, but they're also just their own perspectives, just one step up, so you'll always be stuck with different interpretations, and you'll always have the same problem of communicating beyond explicit terms.

 

The next best thing is to study different approaches and develop your own internal understanding of what is out there, and then you can try to inch other people towards that, despite working with imperfect tools. That applies to all of spiritual teaching anyway: language is always an imperfect tool for communicating the Absolute.

Never heard of David Chalmers. I will look into him. But I guess you are right. Now that I look at things that I’m good at that is exactly what I did. Using different teachings to create my own understanding. 

[ardacigin]

On 05.07.2023 at 7:21 PM, Arthogaan said:

Just like dreamless sleep where no world is generated is still inside the mind, because there is all there is.

I think @ardacigin you could argue from your model that in the state of sleepless dream there is no mind and all that is left is Empty Ultimate Reality, because the mind is gone (because it is turned off).

There is 'mind' in even dreamless sleep and it isnt 'turned off' as you say. You are just not conscious of the mind sense . That is not 'empty ultimate reality'. It is not about 'Buddhists have this bias' first of all, I'm not even a religious Buddhist and second of all, 'All mind' is just wrong on the insight level and so is solipsism. There is no need to 'reconcile' anything. It just doesnt fit. Simple as that.

[Arthogaan]

56 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

'All mind' is just wrong on the insight level and so is solipsism.

Why? What is your argument for that claim and if you could reference that argument to the context of my dream analogy?

[ardacigin]

3 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

Why? What is your argument for that claim and if you could reference that argument to the context of my dream analogy?

Well just keep going in your own dream analogy. You realize that 'Arthagoaan' fella is sleeping and is living in a different 'dimension' so to speak. My point is from your 'dream' landscape (while you are sleeping at night) is NOT all there is to reality. When you do wake up (both figuratively and literally in this case), you see that there is a new 'constructed' reality that INCLUDES your dream reality (Arthagon waking up from the dream as a person. Washing their face, living their lives). 

So that dream landscape ıs NOT all there is to reality. There is Ultimate Reality that FULLY includes and is one with your dream landscape but it is much larger and is NOT a part of 'ALL MIND' as subset. It is the higher order. A reality your mind CANT even access directly with your human brains even with the best pscyhedelics or meditations. Thats the insight into Emptiness and it truly is an eye opener.

Especially considering Leo is extremely intoxicated with the idea that 'The conscious experiences are really important. They are all you know. There is NOTHING that is higher order than this. This is it!' sorta mindset. It is all the foundation that rests on his solipsistic and 'all mind' position. Not even realizing his alien awakenings are jus as unimportant as that coffee table and conscious experiences OVERALL are ultimately meaningless  due to insight into emptiness and impermanence.

Edited July 10, 2023 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

4 hours ago, Arthogaan said:

Why? What is your argument for that claim and if you could reference that argument to the context of my dream analogy?

And hey! you can actually contact that Ultimately Reality that I'm speaking off. It is just not what you think it is. Those insights Buddhists speak of constitute the very nature of that ultimate reality and you can be conscious of them right now! Not via alien awakenings or having bombastic conscious experiences that veer one's constuctions further into 'I'm a being that is omniscient (first of all, all sense of separation is an illusion so you cant even be a 'being' so to speak) AND can control 'reality' (which again implies duality) directly via getting even more conscious' etc. It is easy to slip into that mode when the very experiences that your mind constructs in psychedelics is very convincing.

But there is such a thing as a 'mistaken insight' You misinterpret it and reach the wrong conclusion through the same experiences. So don't put psychedelics on a pedestal and think 'it is 100% the truth downloading to your consciousness' or whatever. Sure it is very close to that actually but there is a significant chance of misinterpretation still

Especially when you are so attached to said experiences for your entire spiritual development like Leo.

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by ardacigin

[Moksha]

6 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

But there is such a thing as a 'mistaken insight' You misinterpret it and reach the wrong conclusion through the same experiences. So don't put psychedelics on a pedestal and think 'it is 100% the truth downloading to your consciousness' or whatever. Sure it is very close to that actually but there is a significant chance of misinterpretation still.

Experiential insights, like those in psychedelics, are indirect and tend to further ensnare awareness in the illusion of its imagination. They become ends unto themselves. Only direct realization sets you free.

The power of insight: How psychedelics solicit false beliefs

Psychedelics are increasingly recognised for their therapeutic potential and ability to re-orient belief structures. However, the potential they carry for inducing false insights and beliefs has thus far been under-considered. Here, we outline the first cohesive model of how psychedelics induce false insights and thence beliefs, leveraging findings from cognitive psychology and computational neuroscience. Being able to explain and understand how psychedelics solicit false beliefs is crucial if we are to optimally leverage their apparent therapeutic potential.

[ardacigin]

3 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Experiential insights, like those in psychedelics, are indirect and tend to further ensnare awareness in the illusion of its imagination. They become ends unto themselves. Only direct realization sets you free.

The power of insight: How psychedelics solicit false beliefs

Psychedelics are increasingly recognised for their therapeutic potential and ability to re-orient belief structures. However, the potential they carry for inducing false insights and beliefs has thus far been under-considered. Here, we outline the first cohesive model of how psychedelics induce false insights and thence beliefs, leveraging findings from cognitive psychology and computational neuroscience. Being able to explain and understand how psychedelics solicit false beliefs is crucial if we are to optimally leverage their apparent therapeutic potential.

But dont get me wrong here. Psychedelics are VERY useful and deep and profound. It is just that it is possible to have mistaken insight. Same is (to a lesser degree) present in normal meditation is as well. 'Mistaken insight' is not a problem actually but psychedelics are MUCH easier to misinterpret. And harder to see 'What was the misinterpretation?'  THAT is my point and is what happened with Leo observing his last few years of content, responses and demeanor.

[Leo Gura]

43 minutes ago, ardacigin said:

THAT is my point and is what happened with Leo observing his last few years of content, responses and demeanor.

Nice try.

[Leo Gura]

Nothing induces more false insight than human science, nonduality, and Buddhism.

All human spirituality is false insight.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Moksha]

@ardacigin The key with insights through psychedelics, as through any other practice, is integration. When attachments are placed on the practice itself, either by clinging to the experience or by demanding results, it hinders rather than facilitates awakening. Insights are only useful to the extent that they dissolve attachments.

[Arthogaan]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

Well just keep going in your own dream analogy. You realize that 'Arthagoaan' fella is sleeping and is living in a different 'dimension' so to speak. My point is from your 'dream' landscape (while you are sleeping at night) is NOT all there is to reality. When you do wake up (both figuratively and literally in this case), you see that there is a new 'constructed' reality that INCLUDES your dream reality (Arthagon waking up from the dream as a person. Washing their face, living their lives). 

So that dream landscape ıs NOT all there is to reality.

Okay I understand, thanks for clarifying. The issue is that lets say again that Lucy goes to sleep at night and has a dream that she is Mary.
Now Mary inside the dream realizes that it is a only a nightly dream and that she creates this dream landscape in a dream with her mind. Inside the dream she meets @ardacigin and he says to her that "there is other reality, Ultimate Reality beyond this dream, the world of Lucy". But inside the dream when Mary realizes that she is Lucy and that there is a normal reality when she would wake up that is A BELIEF. That is not a direct experience. The direct experience of Mary is that this nightly dream is all there is and that currently no normal reality is "waiting for her" until she wakes up. 

I understand what you are saying, and I still am not sure of those insights because I need more 5meo deep trips, but if I were to steelman a Leo's position, I would say that when I sleep at night, the landscape that I generate is all there is and that for some time, this normal reality is not existing.

And I don't see how you can escape that. The sovereignty of you direct experience is inescapable. Even when you have an intuitive insight/experience of this Ultimate Reality, that is still inside your mind. You can not have any experience or insight that is outside of your mind. The Nothingness is The Mind that everything is generated inside.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Insights are only useful to the extent that they dissolve attachments.

Usefulness has nothing to do with insight. Insight is true regardless of whether is has any use to you. There is no connection between raw insight and your attachments. You are parroting Buddhist dogma without actually thinking it through. That is the evil of Buddhism and the misinformation you spread on this forum.

You will NEVER AWAKEN through Buddhism.

Edited July 10, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Arthogaan]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

And hey! you can actually contact that Ultimately Reality that I'm speaking off. It is just not what you think it is. Those insights Buddhists speak of constitute the very nature of that ultimate reality and you can be conscious of them right now! Not via alien awakenings or having bombastic conscious experiences

Yes, I agree, but all of that is still happening inside The Mind. Inside Direct Experience. 

[ardacigin]

35 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

Okay I understand, thanks for clarifying. The issue is that lets say again that Lucy goes to sleep at night and has a dream that she is Mary.
Now Mary inside the dream realizes that it is a only a nightly dream and that she creates this dream landscape in a dream with her mind. Inside the dream she meets @ardacigin and he says to her that "there is other reality, Ultimate Reality beyond this dream, the world of Lucy". But inside the dream when Mary realizes that she is Lucy and that there is a normal reality when she would wake up that is A BELIEF. That is not a direct experience. The direct experience of Mary is that this nightly dream is all there is and that currently no normal reality is "waiting for her" until she wakes up. 

I understand what you are saying, and I still am not sure of those insights because I need more 5meo deep trips, but if I were to steelman a Leo's position, I would say that when I sleep at night, the landscape that I generate is all there is and that for some time, this normal reality is not existing.

And I don't see how you can escape that. The sovereignty of you direct experience is inescapable. Even when you have an intuitive insight/experience of this Ultimate Reality, that is still inside your mind. You can not have any experience or insight that is outside of your mind. The Nothingness is The Mind that everything is generated inside.

Well imagine all the states of consciousness Mary can create (which is infinite) in that dream having amazing experiences. Using psychedelics and meditating. Profound truths regarding 'THAT dream' reality. But thats it. She doesnt see that thats a facade. 'She' is a facade. She is having these awakenings and curing sicknesses of unborn babies by raising her consciousness etc. but she is not cognizant of very nature of how 'experience' arises or how there is a reality Mary can never DIRECTLY access (because it is higher order)

See, Mary doesnt realize this dream is ONLY a subset of a MUCH larger reality her puny brain and meditation techniques and psychedelics have NO access to. But you CAN realize this 'meta' insight by examining your mind and see how your 'mind' is trying to interpret this 'Ultimate Reality' by creating a coffee table, a hand, a body, a self, a world etc.

This is crucial to understand. Your personal mind and its concoctions are NOT all there is to truth. That coffee table is a construct and ONLY represents the very nature of Ultimate reality in a crude and ultimately illusionary manner. (Just like everything)

But these 'conscious experiences' are all we humans have access to derive the 'truth' from the illusion by clarity, mindfulness and deep investigation of what is going on here and thats what the Buddhist path is actually about. You gotta be proficient at this path and then come back to psychedelics and you'll see how different of a perspective you have on certain matters like this.

It is not just about 'experiencing those insights regarding Ultimate Reality and our states of consciousness but also to 'see' them to be the case 100% all the time 24/7.

Thats why it is so powerful and profound. When you do have a permanent insight. Until then, the possibility of misinterpretation exists even in the most experienced psychonauts.

Edited July 10, 2023 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Insights are only useful to the extent that they dissolve attachments.

The usefulness of 'dissolving attachment', as Leo says, is not important in this context. Insights actually stand on their own merits and doesnt need to support any 'survival benefits' so to speak. Those attachments dissolve 'on their own' as a symptom of attaining deep and permanent insight. But I do understand what you mean. (in the sense that there is a correlation between reduced attachment and insight attainment)

Edited July 10, 2023 by ardacigin

[Moksha]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Usefulness has nothing to do with insight. Insight is true regardless of whether is has any use to you. There is no connection between raw insight and your attachments. You are parroting Buddhist dogma without actually thinking it through. That is the evil of Buddhism and the misinformation you spread on this forum.

Why does it matter whether an insight is true, if you don't integrate it? You can chase insights your entire life, and continue suffering in delusion, or you can integrate the truth of who you are and become free. Attachments are bondage, and lead to suffering. If you don't realize this, you aren't awake or AWAKE.

I'm not a Buddhist, or a believer in any dogma, including nonduality.

[ardacigin]

@Moksha Well I think Leo views that argument from 'I value deepest understanding possible compared to embodying an insight'.

He must think it is all right suffering and being in normal states of delusion AS LONG AS he is gaining the deepest insights and understandings no one else is having through psychedelics. (which is not a guarantee by the way as mistaken insights are a real possibility)

But thats  the feeling I got from his demeanor, I may be wrong. 

[_Archangel_]

i think both of you @ardacigin and@Leo Gura are misunderstanding each others positions.
You guys call quasi-identical concepts  different ways and from that stems misunderstandings.

Anyway

On 3/7/2023 at 4:53 PM, ardacigin said:

The subtle crucial difference between what you say and I say is that you say 'My mind or the mind with capital 'M' is the ONLY thing that exists' whereas I know ultimate reality - which my personal mind, conscious experiences not IT, just an intimate part of it) - is IMPINGING on my dream constructed life.

i guess leo's definition of "Mind" would include what you discribe as Ultimate Reality

On 3/7/2023 at 4:53 PM, ardacigin said:

Which is why I can't contol a car hitting me in the traffic. And I cant walk through walls. There are hardwired limitations of this ultimate reality but the little illusory perceptions I see as 'a car', 'movement', 'time moving forward', 'space' etc are all illusions that my mind creates.

You need to be free from those limitations and actually 'create' the rules of the game (like rewriting the source code of a program and 'flying' right before the car hits you, or stopping the car dead on its tracks as all of these elements are PURELY your mind's construct, right? Why you are incapable of doing them - This is not a matter of 'I need to be more conscious via psychedelics to control my dream reality with omnipotence' You'll never accomplish such feats or manipulate/generate such realities.

I don't think Leo has ever claimed that being Mind means being able to manipulate Mind.