For people who think running on a treadmill is different from running on the ground

[Carl-Richard]

Many people think they're different (I've even talked to these people), but only recently, I came up with an interesting thought experiment that shows that they're the same thing.

Imagine that you have a normal treadmill, but instead of the usual length, you extend it many times the usual length (let's say a mile). Stand still on the treadmill and gradually turn it to running speed. Now, before you start running, the material you're standing on is obviously stationary relative to your body, so when you start running, it's just like if you were to start running on the ground (because the ground is also stationary relative to your body). So the only real difference between running on a normal treadmill and the ground is what happens before you hit running speed. On a treadmill, you might jump on at high speed or experience some inertia before you start moving your feet (and of course, there is a difference in air resistance).

And if you're confused by the background being stationary while on a treadmill vs. moving while on the ground, imagine that the material under your feet on the treadmill also has walls on the sides (so you don't see the background, and when you start moving, you'll be moving relative to the walls). That would be just like running on a moving train.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Phil King]

Why can I run 10 miles without mental resistance outside on the ground but then want to blow my brains out at mile 3 on the treadmill?

[hyruga]

1 hour ago, Phil King said:

Why can I run 10 miles without mental resistance outside on the ground but then want to blow my brains out at mile 3 on the treadmill?

I can do the opposite! Haha that's cos I used to run on threadmill at least once a week.

I can even run at Kipchoge's speed for 3 min on a threadmill. But I don't do that in real life.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Phil King said:

Why can I run 10 miles without mental resistance outside on the ground but then want to blow my brains out at mile 3 on the treadmill?

I guess when you're running through a shifting environment, there is a feeling of progress as you go along. On the treadmill, you're stuck in an endless loop of putting one foot before the other. It doesn't feel very meaningful, and the experience of meaning is arguably synonymous with the experience of motivation. Besides, running in fresh air with a slight breeze while viewing bits of nature energizes the soul.

Also, generally speaking, the more engaging an activity is for your various mental faculties, the more you like doing it, and the more motivation you feel (this is similar to "competence needs" in Self-Determination Theory, which is required for intrinsic motivation, the most optimal form for motivation). So in summary, you can tie this to various mental phenomena like the need for meaning, the need for stimulation and intrinsic motivation.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

Real-world running is quite noticably different than treadmill running. Real-world running is harder. The treadmill just spins under your feet, that's not how real running works, where you have to push yourself forward more. On a treadmill you are not pushing forward, you are just lifting your legs.

If you train on a treadmill a lot, and then try real running, you will feel weak at it.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Arthogaan]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Real-world running is quite noticably different than treadmill running. Real-world running is harder. The treadmill just spins under your feet, that's not how real running works, where you have to push yourself forward more. On a treadmill you are not pushing forward, you are just lifting your legs.

If you train on a treadmill a lot, and then try real running, you will feel weak at it.

I agree that real-world running is harder/better but for different reasons. You have to change direction slightly at all times, and due to surface imperfections you hit at a different angle, so it can be better for knees, because the movement is less repeatable. 

But to stay in place on a treadmill you have to push forward just the same. It is just a POV thing. From the perspective of an ant standing on a treadmil you would push yourself the same way as normal running. That's how physics work. 

Also, anecdotally after training regurarly on a treadmill during winter I was significantly better at running outdoor when it started to warm up. The same with bike. 

So really it is all not that improtant. Just exercise as often as you can in whatever way is easiest to force yourself into.

[mmKay]

Running masterclass

Look into chi walking as well.

[gettoefl]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Real-world running is quite noticably different than treadmill running. Real-world running is harder. The treadmill just spins under your feet, that's not how real running works, where you have to push yourself forward more. On a treadmill you are not pushing forward, you are just lifting your legs.

If you train on a treadmill a lot, and then try real running, you will feel weak at it.

correct ... the treadmill runs you, it is completely different to being out there

i can easily run 12mph on a treadmill for 10k but outside not even close

[Yimpa]

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Yimpa

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Real-world running is quite noticably different than treadmill running. Real-world running is harder. The treadmill just spins under your feet, that's not how real running works, where you have to push yourself forward more. On a treadmill you are not pushing forward, you are just lifting your legs.

If you train on a treadmill a lot, and then try real running, you will feel weak at it.

So what is wrong with my thought experiment?

[Michael569]

Maybe the cardiovascular system response is the same but the mental response is definitely not the same. 

Running outside engages all of your senses, it actively forces you to track the surface, adjust, avoid obstacles, take in smells, objects etc. 

Running on the treadmill makes me feel like I'm being punished for something - it is depressing, boring and you can't even sweat properly without people giving you disgusted looks. 

Maybe its a mind game but try comparing running along a forest track or even just a city at night with running in a stuffy gym and looking at sweaty back of the guy in front of you  

That being said, I think a 10-minute run to wrap up a workout if you;re trying to burn some extra fat is a good idea but it is far from enjoyable 

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Michael569 said:

Maybe the cardiovascular system response is the same but the mental response is definitely not the same. 

Running outside engages all of your senses, it actively forces you to track the surface, adjust, avoid obstacles, take in smells, objects etc. 

Running on the treadmill makes me feel like I'm being punished for something - it is depressing, boring and you can't even sweat properly without people giving you disgusted looks. 

Maybe its a mind game but try comparing running along a forest track or even just a city at night with running in a stuffy gym and looking at sweaty back of the guy in front of you  

That being said, I think a 10-minute run to wrap up a workout if you;re trying to burn some extra fat is a good idea but it is far from enjoyable 

Agree. I was mainly focused on the physics.

[Carl-Richard]

@Leo Gura @gettoefl

Here is another thought experiment that is comparable to jumping onto a treadmill set to high speed:

Imagine being on a train that moves at the same speed as the belt on the treadmill. Let's say you're hanging from some handlebars to where you're able to drop yourself off the train and onto the moving ground. There is no real difference between the moving belt on the treadmill and the moving ground with respect to what you will experience as you jump onto it and start running (in terms of moving your legs).

People only think they're not the same because they instinctively treat the ground as some absolute reference frame of motion. The ground is of course not really stationary either. It's spinning in space at 1000 miles per hour as Earth rotates around its own axis. So running on the ground should also be like "only lifting your feet", as it's moving so fast, right? Nope. This is basic relativity of motion ?

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[supremeyingyang]

@Carl-Richard

Let's say they are the same -- why is it important that people agree on that they are the same? They can use what they think is better and get the same results. Do you argue with people while on treadmill about this? Seems like a huge waste of time.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, supremeyingyang said:

@Carl-Richard

Let's say they are the same -- why is it important that people agree on that they are the same? They can use what they think is better and get the same results. Do you argue with people while on treadmill about this? Seems like a huge waste of time.

Because it's a physical reality.

[supremeyingyang]

@Carl-Richard

Reality you argue for is that it is doesn't matter, so whatever they believe they get the same result. So it can't be only this. So?

[zurew]

@Carl-Richard You are a treadmill guy aren't you? (and this whole thread is just a rationalization so that you don't need to go outside for a run)

just jking

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, zurew said:

@Carl-Richard You are a treadmill guy aren't you? (and this whole thread is just a rationalization so that you don't need to go outside for a run)

just jking

I don't even run at all, because it makes me feel like a sissy afterwards ? (for the next two-three days, probably due to increased cortisol and a subsequent decrease in testosterone).

 

1 hour ago, supremeyingyang said:

@Carl-Richard

Reality you argue for is that it is doesn't matter, so whatever they believe they get the same result. So it can't be only this. So?

My dude, I'm arguing against people who think they're different for the same reason that I would argue against people who think the Earth is flat.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[supremeyingyang]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

My dude, I'm arguing against people who think they're different for the same reason that I would argue against someone thinking the Earth is flat.

So you believe in the hoax of a round earth.

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, supremeyingyang said:

So you believe in the hoax of a round earth.

Nah you have to be trolling.