Proof of an external world?

[Breakingthewall]

9 hours ago, OBEler said:

@Leo Gura so the answer to this is not knowing? 

Like Peter Ralston would say

On 21/11/2022 at 7:38 PM, OBEler said:

@Breakingthewall 

On 21/11/2022 at 6:49 PM, OBEler said:

@Breakingthewall 

Now i understand the idea, in part thanks to razard and amanem.

absolutely everything that exists will be within your direct experience. if you are thinking of others, thinking of others is your direct experience. Not the others, just thinking in others.  there is nothing else and there can't be nothing else. if there is, it would be because it has entered your direct experience, so your pov is the absolute. point.

To think that perhaps it is obeler's pov exists, it is something that I am thinking about now. no obeler pov, just my idea of obeler pov. You cannot get out of your direct experience, because if you did, that would be your direct experience, so there is only your direct experience, and that's it.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Breakingthewall

[Leo Gura]

28 minutes ago, OBEler said:

@Leo Gura so the answer to this is not knowing? 

Like Peter Ralston would say

No.

The answer is realizing you are Absolute.

[Jannes]

On 28.11.2022 at 6:24 AM, Leo Gura said:

That's NOT an assumption.

That's literally absolutely true.

Check.

It’s true that in direct experience there is only subjective experience. But it doesn’t exclude that there is something outside direct experience. So even though the thought that there is something outside direct experience is direct experience, this thought could still point to something true. (something outside direct experience)

So what is awakening? I don’t think it’s a disproof of something existing outside of direct experience. I think it’s that I am unaware that my thought that there is something outside of direct experience is just a thought and not reality. So when I wake up I see that it’s just a thought and the possibility of there existing something outside of direct experience won’t be disproven but will simply seem laughable because there is no reason to believe a thought by itself. 

[Osaid]

No matter what you guys imagine or perceive, it will always be happening from your experience. Even the idea of other experiences. It couldn't be happening anywhere else. Where else would it occur? Notice that any idea you get of existence occurring somewhere else is just an idea, and it always will be an idea, inherently. If it's not an idea, then it's occurring as something that isn't an idea, and thus it isn't "occurring somewhere else" as you imagine.

When asking whether something exists or not, it helps to first get clear on what it actually means for something to exist and not exist. If you simply contemplate the root of the question, which is "what does it mean for something to exist?", you will be able to answer any other questions regarding what does and doesn't exist very easily. The content of the question might be different, but the structure is the same.

[r0ckyreed]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

How could you ever know? Since as soon as you know it, it's your experience.

There's no way out of yourself.

Correct. But what if “knowing” has nothing to do with “existing?” To know requires existence. But maybe there are somethings that I will never know since existence is prior to knowledge. Maybe that one thing that I cannot know but yet may still exist is the existence other sovereign fields of consciousness like my own subjective experience. Of course, the external world and other sovereign minds are inferences, assumptions, and speculations at best, but part of the nature of Infinity is that it exists but it is unknowable. Maybe that could be the case with “external world” and “other minds?” That they exist but are unknowable, which is what epistemological solipsism seems to suggest.

On the contrary, when I question what another sovereign consciousness is I run into more issues.  The issue that I find is that if there are other sovereign consciousnesses, then they would have to be located in my own subjective experience (behind my eyes so to speak). It is natural to assume that the idea of other minds exist behind humans eyes. But what difference is there really between the consciousness of a table and that of a human? They are both objects inside of my subjective experience.  They are both objects inside my dream.

Oh shit!! If other minds do exist, they would have to be in me! Experience is not located in any object because all objects are appearances within experience! Now I have no idea what it even means to say that other minds exist because that would conflate subjective experience with the object of a brain. But everything that is known about the brain is a perception and idea in my subjective experience.

Now, I think I am getting what is meant by Experience is Absolute. There is nothing more fundamental than that. But I still have my doubts as expressed in paragraph one about whether my subjective experience is the only one. I cannot even conceive of infinity of sovereign subjective experiences. Well, maybe I can but they’d just be my own. But I can only experience One!!  

I feel like I am slowly breaking at this ice. I felt a little shift in perspective. I’m gonna journal about it more for clarity. 

Thanks!  

Edited December 1, 2022 by r0ckyreed

[roopepa]

Once again, very misleading and ignorant stuff shared on this thread.

The only thing that is, is not "just your subjective experience". What is, is the substance, or source of all that is, which is never experienced, known, or became conscious of.

Solipsism is not Truth. Solipsism can never be experienced, became awaken / conscious to, or known, which means it could not be the case even if it was the case. Solipsism can only be thought or believed (and the suffering of doing so felt).

What is the eternal Truth, is the substance / source of thought, like the thoughts "solipsism" or "my subjective experience" for example.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by roopepa

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Jannes said:

It’s true that in direct experience there is only subjective experience. But it doesn’t exclude that there is something outside direct experience.

It does once you realize you are Infinite.

Quote

So even though the thought that there is something outside direct experience is direct experience, this thought could still point to something true. (something outside direct experience)

No.

Infinity does not have an outside.

Quote

So what is awakening? I don’t think it’s a disproof of something existing outside of direct experience. I think it’s that I am unaware that my thought that there is something outside of direct experience is just a thought and not reality. So when I wake up I see that it’s just a thought and the possibility of there existing something outside of direct experience won’t be disproven but will simply seem laughable because there is no reason to believe a thought by itself. 

Awakening is the realization that everything is your dream.

4 hours ago, r0ckyreed said:

Correct. But what if “knowing” has nothing to do with “existing?”

And what if it does?

- - - - - -

You are not grasping that your experience is Absolute. 

How does God hide stuff from itself?

At the highest level God has to see all of itself.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Leo Gura

[Nercohype]

 

I am the body (ego, seperate self) 

I am infinity (spirit/consiousness) 

Awakening. 

You must merge Spirit(consciousness) and energy (physical world) to be illuminated being. 

Inner world (psyche + consiousness) 

+

Outer world (natural science) 

= illumination. 

They are BOTH the real. BOTH exist in complete unity. 

Imagine the Jing Yang symbol. If all was just white (consciousness) how would you regonize the black? 

What if all was just Black(energy) , how would you regonize the White part? 

You can't regonize them. But when they are together you can regonize and become illuminated. 

The fact is that you can't have one without the other. 

This proves that there is external world and Inner world. Physical and spiritual. 

BOTH are sides of the same coin. 

Spirit and energy are the same thing but in different STATES at the same TIME. 

DO YOU SEE? 

It is not right to say that external world does not exist. It exist as much as consiousness. Because it is consciousness but in completely different state. 

Without this relationship with spirit and energy you could never ever realizes anything at all. 

The fact is that there is only ONE Truth. Not multible! And the Truth is that Spirit is one thing. This means it is timeless. Timeless is eternal. It is personal. Timelessness has no space. No space means it is SILENCE (No motion) Spirit is completely motionless, unmanifested nothingness. 

Matter on the other hand is complete opposites of spirit. 

Matter is motion, Time, space, un True, indifferent. Seperation. 

Thinking is motion and this is why thinking alone cannot reach Spirit. 

Spirit can only know spirit by BEING SPIRIT. 

This means that psychedelic which amplify imagination (thinking) is not a valid place to draw any real facts. Only by complete relaxation and Stillness can pure consiousness shine. There in that unity is wholeness and KNOWINGNESS.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Nercohype

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It does once you realize you are Infinite.

it seems that infinity can be divided into infinities infinities that, being always the same infinity, act as independent ones, and that can collapse into one since they are really the same

[Jannes]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It does once you realize you are Infinite.

No.

Infinity does not have an outside.

I could be infinite but still a superset of all of reality. Just like rational numbers are infinite but still a superset of real numbers. I know you said that you can awaken to the fact that you are absolute infinity which would exclude something outside of it. 
But how can this experience be had? If I spent enough time contemplating on a superset of reality I will be overwhelmed by its complexity and detail and can loose myself in "superset infinity“. I could loose myself in the infinity of rational numbers for example. So how can you differentiate between "really fucking infinite“ and "absolutely infinite“ ? 
 

[Arthogaan]

1 hour ago, Jannes said:

I could be infinite but still a superset of all of reality. Just like rational numbers are infinite but still a superset of real numbers.

That mathematical meaning of the word infinity is different than meaning of true infinity.

True Infinity cannot be subset of anything, because if something is trully infinite then it is ALL THAT THERE IS and ever could be.  You could think about Infinite as without boundaries, and subset of real numbers has some boundaries. True Infinity does not.

And therefore infinity must be ONE, because there is nothing outside of it.

 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Arthogaan

[Jannes]

1 hour ago, Arthogaan said:

That mathematical meaning of the word infinity is different than meaning of true infinity.

True Infinity cannot be subset of anything, because if something is trully infinite then it is ALL THAT THERE IS and ever could be.  You could think about Infinite as without boundaries, and subset of real numbers has some boundaries. True Infinity does not.

And therefore infinity must be ONE, because there is nothing outside of it.

 

But how do you know that it is truly absolute infinity and not just something epically big that it is so overwhelming that our finite minds label it as infinity because we couldn’t grasp the possibility that there could be even something bigger? How can a experience give you that message? And how do you know that all boundaries are broken?

 

 

 

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It does once you realize you are Infinite.

Isn't the reason for why I'm not experiencing the pov of other people because I am finite, and that if I became infinite it would also include their experiences and every possible experience that could be experienced? So isn't the "non-existence" of other povs just another finite concept, or a human perception?