How can we speak in a way that allows maximum growth and depth on the forum?

[Thought Art]

When I am speaking with people on the forum for example I'd like to begin communicating in a more conscious, loving and healthy way that allows each thread the opportunity for maximum growth, depth, and love for everyone involved. 

When I see people who are really biased, and sticking to their view... Is there anyway to steer the conversation not towards them like, agreeing with me.... but instead towards opening up the discussion to be more open, where people feel more safe to play with different interpretations, ideas, perspective from an open minded place? 

Is that something you can cultivate or something people have to bring to the table themselves? 

Sometimes I notice I battle people, or bludgeon them with my perspective and I'd like to begin instead cultivating/ contributing to threads more open ended, safe places for people to explore different biases and perspectives. 

Wondering if you had any thoughts on this?

I have realized that I never need to be right or prove my point on this forum. Theres nothing to ever lose, or at risk at any point. So, I don't need to defend anything. No one here can do anything to me. Any reaction I have to someones ideas is my own reaction and self doing. 

 I'd like to instead focus on speaking so we can all learn more about our own biases, perspectives, blind spots, ideas, implicit understandings, and the functionings of our own minds and consciousness. 

It's definitely not easy and will take a conscious effort on my part to improve in this regard.  

I never need to be right or prove my point on this forum. Theres nothing to ever lose, or at risk at any point. So, I don't need to defend anything. I'd like to instead be an uncarved block of wood. I am completely safe at all times. Theres no risk involved in being open, expansive...

Yes, Leo reminds me about the Socratic Method. I've read "The Last days of Socrates" a few years ago. I'll need to get another copy. I remember I found it very inspiring. I think I cried tears reading it.

I think I will try to make an effort to apply the Socratic method, non-violent communication, conflict resolution principles and try to contribute to threads in a way that allows people to really open up and explore their own ideas. 

Some book Recommendations:

The Last day of Socrates - for the socratic method. A method of communicating that allows participant to explore and understand more deeply what they mean by the symbolic references (language) they use. To understand peoples points, implicit understanding, to help them explore their own ideas etc

Non-Violent Communication - for tips and practices on speaking from a place of understanding and non-violence 

The Space Between Us - Conversations about Transforming Conflict  - A great book on understanding conflict and conflict resolution

Fixed - How to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving - A great book for exploring and understanding your own biases, double standards, worldviews, and blind spots

Triggers - David Richo How to understand your own triggers and heal them

How to have power and influence in dealing with people  - counterintuitive title. Short easy read.

Practicing Peace - Pema Chodron - a short book

Leo shared with me just now though I haven't read it How To Have Impossible Conversations  (which looks like a book I will pick up)

I notice that when people get scared, or feel their 'person' or 'ego' gets threatened it basically derails the thread.  But, if I and we can learn to communicate in a better way this forum can become much much more beautiful.

I won't be perfect. My ego gets a pleasure out of combatting with me ideas, or being a bit snarky, silly, etc. Hmmm, We will see.

Okay, take care

Edited October 20, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

I added some book recommendations. This thread should bleed over and carry into your life in general.

[puporing]

By acknowledging that everyone is living in their version of "Truth" and that's valid to them. 

By being encouraging and showing what else is possible without condemning the truth of their reality now.

Because the truth is all of us never stopped growing and had the experience of looking back at something we thought was true once upon a time that we have evolved out of to a "new Truth".

But of course me talking about "how it should be" is just yet another form of intervention at how people naturally want to be and express their truth, so don't take me too seriously.

[Thought Art]

8 minutes ago, puporing said:

By being encouraging and showing what else is possible without condemning the truth of their reality now.

I like this. 

Somehow, this reminds me of what a coach does. Guides, ideally open endedly for people to make their own self discoveries. At least, this is a part of coaching.

 

 

[puporing]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Somehow, this reminds me of what a coach does. Guides, ideally open endedly for people to make their own self discoveries. At least, this is a part of coaching.

 thanks.

That's not to say I don't appreciate "other forms" of guidance. I just feel like if you want to maximize the effectiveness of your guidance to the most number of people it seems that getting past their natural defense mechanism with a dose of love would be a good approach. Humor being another angle (which also tend to be loving). Easier said than done. It's wonderful that you're thinking about it. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by puporing

[Thought Art]

@puporing Even the word guidance feels a bit strong for what I want to point to. 

Just, being like...

You know if you put food dye on milk and then add a little soap?

[BipolarGrowth]

I think one thing that could make communication be more helpful on here is trying to be precise with how we use big buzz words and at times giving a quick working definition of what we mean. For example, there are countless times people say awakening, enlightenment, etc. and often two or more individuals end up in a bit of debate or light argument which might have been avoided if people were more clear with what they mean. I’ve even had times where I get in a bit of contentious discussion over something to end up seeing we were trying to say the same thing although the connotations we had individually made us both interpret each other in completely inaccurate ways until a few responses had gone back and forth. 

[Thought Art]

@BipolarGrowth I think that’s a great point as well. 
 

I think what you’ve explained there is a major part of a lot of the conflicts on the forum as well. People don’t always understand what we mean by our words as we all have our own filters. 
 

Spiritual discussion is really tough. I wonder how we can promote that patience, and Socratic humility with these discussions?

[puporing]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

put food dye on milk and then add a little soap?

Like a witch? 

Edited October 20, 2022 by puporing

[Thought Art]

Expand

 

[puporing]

That's awesome , like a psychedelic.

[JosephKnecht]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Wondering if you had any thoughts on this?

From one perspective, we are all displaying our highest Thought Art. @Thought Art

From another perspective, we are all projecting our personal biases. 

For God, our biases are his Thought Art. 

[integral]

I also thought about this for a while and maybe we need to reinvent communication entirely.

The issue is everyone has different terms of engagement. We need to set the terms for engagement and then communicate from that framework.

So having a meta conversation about the style of communication you guys want to have.

Another option is to completely reinvent what a conversation is. why are we texting back-and-forth is this really the most productive method?

On 2022-05-31 at 9:24 AM, integral said:

Building While Chatting - New Forum Concept

Goal

• Environment for conversation merged with collaboration.
• Set style, terms, mindset and expectations of conversation.
• Incentives creation, building and exploration rater then debating. 
• Organizes different perspectives and the ideas as the conversation unfolds
• Productivity naturally built into the environment
• Integration of ones notes, knowledge graph and chat
• Storage and quick access to past collaborations for one endless exchange between people
• Optimize learning between minds

Possible Implementations

1. Collaborate on 1 Mind Map like environment integrated into a forums thread, different perspectives are organized by branching options for that idea or sub idea.
   • Organizes the body of knowledge in one growing place instead of scattered on a forum
   • Each thread focus energy on building something together
   • Removes things being taken personally
   • Removes the need to repeat yourself. 
   • Focus on the ideas not the person
   • Explicates the persons perspective/paradigm
   • Avoids miscommunication 
   • Allows for much large and complete knowledge exchange as these maps will be built up over time
   • Guides are placed along the way, best practices
   • Templates for integral spiritual metaphysical philosophical thinking.
2. Conversate with Mind Maps back and forward, distill a thought or paragraph into a mind map
   • Sets a mindset of building or mapping out the idea instead of sending another person a message. 
   • User profile: Allows for a overview of the person and there pre-existing beliefs, so you know who your talking to and how they think before engagement.
   • Past work recycled: Organizes ones knowledge and integrates into there every day chat.
   • Builds up a personal database of knowledge that is one click available to send out for communication, integrated into life
   • Personal Learning Tool
   • Scaffolding and templating for crafting a comment

Random ideas I put in some thread.

[Ulax]

@Thought Art I think I share what seems to me to be an ambition to see the forum become more conscious, collaborative and respectful.

I've had a think about what personal actions a user could take in an effort to help achieve that ambition. Here is what comes to mind for me and what I thought would be conducive to these aims:

- Speak using first person language. I.e. 'I think that X is the best solution' instead of 'X is the best solution'.

- Don't be verbally abusive to the other person. No matter what they say to you. For example, instead of responding 'You're being an arsehole' you can respond 'I don't think its appropriate to speak to me in that way' and report their post if you think it is abusive. To my mind, responding to abuse with abuse is still abuse. I still find it inappropriate and also is part of what derails dialogue and the chances of a more collaborative atmosphere on the forum.

- Take responsibility for our own emotions. Instead of placing the responsibility for our emotional responses on others. For example, I'd say it is taking responsibility if we say, 'When you said X, I felt Y'. And, it is not taking responsibility if we say something akin to, 'you make me feel so angry' or 'nah that pisses me off'.

- Report comments/ posts if you think they are behaving abusively

- Voice opinion regarding behaviour of mods and/ or Leo, non-abusively, if you think they are not responding reasonably to abusive behaviour or engaging in it themselves.

- Show an understanding of the other person's position.

- Don't invalidate the other person's feelings, i.e. 'you are a pussy if you feel scared', or 'don't worry'

----------------------------------------

I like that you made this post btw. I've decided to intend to have a read through that book about impossible conversations that I believe you said Leo recommended you.

[Thought Art]

@Ulax Thanks for contributing those ideas. I think they are valuable to this thread and the forum. 
 

Yea, Leo recommended it to me yesterday. I’m gonna order it in November.

[UnbornTao]

A ton of what passes as communication is actually manipulation, both subtle and gross.

One way to go about it is by contemplating the difference between the two: What's communication? What is its purpose? What makes it powerful, effective? How does it differ from manipulation?

I think those are great questions to ponder on our own.

[Loba]

I don't know, I feel as though people have a right to be who they want to be.  I kind of view this post as semi-controlling and a need to direct other people into reacting or following their spiritual journey in a way that one person sees fit, and I don't think that works.  I see a lot of people on this forum over the years try and change other people's perspectives, get them to see things in a certain way, try and tell them they are wrong for their beliefs and I think this is just a way to avoid going within.  It's two sides of the same coin.  When I am actively working on myself, doing what I need to do to grow, what other people do doesn't affect me at all.

It's only when looking outwards and having expectations of others does my personal journey start to go awry.  I think, the solution is in general, just to focus on yourself and actually try to move away from debate, prolonged discussion on these topics and any of that nonsense.  Once I start to go within, to uncover things within myself - I can get pretty far.  I would say, if you must direct people in a certain manner, just getting them to refocus inwards is going to be the best solution, for yourself or anyone who uses this forum.  No one really needs to work on developing better communication with anyone, everything is just going to be how it is, and that's the name of the game - keep going inside.  Never let go of that.

If this forum were to change in any meaningful way, then we would have a bunch of people doing this - and they would begin to unravel their own unique paths, their own genius, creative potential and so forth.

[Thought Art]

11 minutes ago, Loba said:

  I kind of view this post as semi-controlling and a need to direct other people into reacting or following their spiritual journey in a way that one person sees fit, and I don't think that works. 

Ironic ahah

What’s controlling about it?

[Thought Art]

14 minutes ago, Loba said:

No one really needs to work on developing better communication with anyone

Why do you think that?

 

[Loba]

12 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

What’s controlling about it?

What's controlling about it - well, why do you want to take over another person's worldview and crack them open in such a way so that your particular viewpoints flood in?  What if it's meant to happen at a certain point in time that doesn't have anything to do with when you see fit?  How do you know someone isn't closed for certain, important reasons?  Humans are memetic, and so are their views and ideas.  It's probably just an idea that wants to live through you and worm its way into another human, but why should it?  What's wrong with being closed minded?  And what if they're not?  How do you know for sure that your assumption of their open mindedness is correct?  And finally, biases serve to protect a person from something, people hold onto them when they are not ready to wake up to a certain paradigm.  It isn't up to a random person online to be the one to do this. 

In my experience, people who try to "open me up" in a certain way, in order to let their certain brand of ideas penetrate me are often impatient, or they don't see the full picture into who I am, there are so many variables when it comes to the give and take of things, that I think the best solution isn't to open anyone up, but just to show them how they can return to going back within.  There really isn't anything more anyone needs to do, as everything they will or should do is predicated upon just that simple change - outwards to inwards.  That's about it...  and then when they do, everything should take care of itself in time. 

But these repetitive spiritual arguments/debates and the need to change other people that so so so many of you here seem to like to do, day in day out, it's just you guys distracting yourselves, and then patting yourselves on the back for being so "woke".  Have you ever noticed that it's the folks here who aren't on this website arguing every day, who don't feel the need to always have a position over other people, these are the ones who generally actually get somewhere with this work?  I mean, at some point, I would hope that the people here would see this, but you see the exact same crowd debating day after day, year after year without any change... I used to get more into these spiritual debates a few years ago, but even with me I managed to learn my lesson and just focus on my own shizz.

If you really wanted people to grow, and didn't want to keep them stuck then you'd let it go or just focus on your own stuff.  Goes for anyone with this kind of psychology.  Generally people that get into debates with others for prolonged periods of time, or who want to dissect worldviews just want to keep other people stuck on some level, the same level they are at - I call it "squawking seagull level".

21 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Why do you think that?

Because from a higher point of view, everyone is doing what they are supposed to be doing with the time that they are given.  Even me posting this is "ironic", but I don't do it very often.  I just feel that this thread is a good conduit for this message.  People grow on their own terms.  Everyone here should ideally just stop debating, work from within and then share openly, and call it a day.