How can we speak in a way that allows maximum growth and depth on the forum?

[Thought Art]

When I am speaking with people on the forum for example I'd like to begin communicating in a more conscious, loving and healthy way that allows each thread the opportunity for maximum growth, depth, and love for everyone involved. 

When I see people who are really biased, and sticking to their view... Is there anyway to steer the conversation not towards them like, agreeing with me.... but instead towards opening up the discussion to be more open, where people feel more safe to play with different interpretations, ideas, perspective from an open minded place? 

Is that something you can cultivate or something people have to bring to the table themselves? 

Sometimes I notice I battle people, or bludgeon them with my perspective and I'd like to begin instead cultivating/ contributing to threads more open ended, safe places for people to explore different biases and perspectives. 

Wondering if you had any thoughts on this?

I have realized that I never need to be right or prove my point on this forum. Theres nothing to ever lose, or at risk at any point. So, I don't need to defend anything. No one here can do anything to me. Any reaction I have to someones ideas is my own reaction and self doing. 

 I'd like to instead focus on speaking so we can all learn more about our own biases, perspectives, blind spots, ideas, implicit understandings, and the functionings of our own minds and consciousness. 

It's definitely not easy and will take a conscious effort on my part to improve in this regard.  

I never need to be right or prove my point on this forum. Theres nothing to ever lose, or at risk at any point. So, I don't need to defend anything. I'd like to instead be an uncarved block of wood. I am completely safe at all times. Theres no risk involved in being open, expansive...

Yes, Leo reminds me about the Socratic Method. I've read "The Last days of Socrates" a few years ago. I'll need to get another copy. I remember I found it very inspiring. I think I cried tears reading it.

I think I will try to make an effort to apply the Socratic method, non-violent communication, conflict resolution principles and try to contribute to threads in a way that allows people to really open up and explore their own ideas. 

Some book Recommendations:

The Last day of Socrates - for the socratic method. A method of communicating that allows participant to explore and understand more deeply what they mean by the symbolic references (language) they use. To understand peoples points, implicit understanding, to help them explore their own ideas etc

Non-Violent Communication - for tips and practices on speaking from a place of understanding and non-violence 

The Space Between Us - Conversations about Transforming Conflict  - A great book on understanding conflict and conflict resolution

Fixed - How to Perfect the Fine Art of Problem Solving - A great book for exploring and understanding your own biases, double standards, worldviews, and blind spots

Triggers - David Richo How to understand your own triggers and heal them

How to have power and influence in dealing with people  - counterintuitive title. Short easy read.

Practicing Peace - Pema Chodron - a short book

Leo shared with me just now though I haven't read it How To Have Impossible Conversations  (which looks like a book I will pick up)

I notice that when people get scared, or feel their 'person' or 'ego' gets threatened it basically derails the thread.  But, if I and we can learn to communicate in a better way this forum can become much much more beautiful.

I won't be perfect. My ego gets a pleasure out of combatting with me ideas, or being a bit snarky, silly, etc. Hmmm, We will see.

Okay, take care

Edited October 20, 2022 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

I added some book recommendations. This thread should bleed over and carry into your life in general.

[puporing]

By acknowledging that everyone is living in their version of "Truth" and that's valid to them. 

By being encouraging and showing what else is possible without condemning the truth of their reality now.

Because the truth is all of us never stopped growing and had the experience of looking back at something we thought was true once upon a time that we have evolved out of to a "new Truth".

But of course me talking about "how it should be" is just yet another form of intervention at how people naturally want to be and express their truth, so don't take me too seriously.

[Thought Art]

8 minutes ago, puporing said:

By being encouraging and showing what else is possible without condemning the truth of their reality now.

I like this. 

Somehow, this reminds me of what a coach does. Guides, ideally open endedly for people to make their own self discoveries. At least, this is a part of coaching.

 

 

[puporing]

5 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Somehow, this reminds me of what a coach does. Guides, ideally open endedly for people to make their own self discoveries. At least, this is a part of coaching.

 thanks.

That's not to say I don't appreciate "other forms" of guidance. I just feel like if you want to maximize the effectiveness of your guidance to the most number of people it seems that getting past their natural defense mechanism with a dose of love would be a good approach. Humor being another angle (which also tend to be loving). Easier said than done. It's wonderful that you're thinking about it. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by puporing

[Thought Art]

@puporing Even the word guidance feels a bit strong for what I want to point to. 

Just, being like...

You know if you put food dye on milk and then add a little soap?

[BipolarGrowth]

I think one thing that could make communication be more helpful on here is trying to be precise with how we use big buzz words and at times giving a quick working definition of what we mean. For example, there are countless times people say awakening, enlightenment, etc. and often two or more individuals end up in a bit of debate or light argument which might have been avoided if people were more clear with what they mean. I’ve even had times where I get in a bit of contentious discussion over something to end up seeing we were trying to say the same thing although the connotations we had individually made us both interpret each other in completely inaccurate ways until a few responses had gone back and forth. 

[Thought Art]

@BipolarGrowth I think that’s a great point as well. 
 

I think what you’ve explained there is a major part of a lot of the conflicts on the forum as well. People don’t always understand what we mean by our words as we all have our own filters. 
 

Spiritual discussion is really tough. I wonder how we can promote that patience, and Socratic humility with these discussions?

[puporing]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

put food dye on milk and then add a little soap?

Like a witch? 

Edited October 20, 2022 by puporing

[Thought Art]

Expand

 

[puporing]

That's awesome , like a psychedelic.

[JosephKnecht]

6 hours ago, Thought Art said:

Wondering if you had any thoughts on this?

From one perspective, we are all displaying our highest Thought Art. @Thought Art

From another perspective, we are all projecting our personal biases. 

For God, our biases are his Thought Art. 

[integral]

I also thought about this for a while and maybe we need to reinvent communication entirely.

The issue is everyone has different terms of engagement. We need to set the terms for engagement and then communicate from that framework.

So having a meta conversation about the style of communication you guys want to have.

Another option is to completely reinvent what a conversation is. why are we texting back-and-forth is this really the most productive method?

On 2022-05-31 at 9:24 AM, integral said:

Building While Chatting - New Forum Concept

Goal

• Environment for conversation merged with collaboration.
• Set style, terms, mindset and expectations of conversation.
• Incentives creation, building and exploration rater then debating. 
• Organizes different perspectives and the ideas as the conversation unfolds
• Productivity naturally built into the environment
• Integration of ones notes, knowledge graph and chat
• Storage and quick access to past collaborations for one endless exchange between people
• Optimize learning between minds

Possible Implementations

1. Collaborate on 1 Mind Map like environment integrated into a forums thread, different perspectives are organized by branching options for that idea or sub idea.
   • Organizes the body of knowledge in one growing place instead of scattered on a forum
   • Each thread focus energy on building something together
   • Removes things being taken personally
   • Removes the need to repeat yourself. 
   • Focus on the ideas not the person
   • Explicates the persons perspective/paradigm
   • Avoids miscommunication 
   • Allows for much large and complete knowledge exchange as these maps will be built up over time
   • Guides are placed along the way, best practices
   • Templates for integral spiritual metaphysical philosophical thinking.
2. Conversate with Mind Maps back and forward, distill a thought or paragraph into a mind map
   • Sets a mindset of building or mapping out the idea instead of sending another person a message. 
   • User profile: Allows for a overview of the person and there pre-existing beliefs, so you know who your talking to and how they think before engagement.
   • Past work recycled: Organizes ones knowledge and integrates into there every day chat.
   • Builds up a personal database of knowledge that is one click available to send out for communication, integrated into life
   • Personal Learning Tool
   • Scaffolding and templating for crafting a comment

Random ideas I put in some thread.

[Ulax]

@Thought Art I think I share what seems to me to be an ambition to see the forum become more conscious, collaborative and respectful.

I've had a think about what personal actions a user could take in an effort to help achieve that ambition. Here is what comes to mind for me and what I thought would be conducive to these aims:

- Speak using first person language. I.e. 'I think that X is the best solution' instead of 'X is the best solution'.

- Don't be verbally abusive to the other person. No matter what they say to you. For example, instead of responding 'You're being an arsehole' you can respond 'I don't think its appropriate to speak to me in that way' and report their post if you think it is abusive. To my mind, responding to abuse with abuse is still abuse. I still find it inappropriate and also is part of what derails dialogue and the chances of a more collaborative atmosphere on the forum.

- Take responsibility for our own emotions. Instead of placing the responsibility for our emotional responses on others. For example, I'd say it is taking responsibility if we say, 'When you said X, I felt Y'. And, it is not taking responsibility if we say something akin to, 'you make me feel so angry' or 'nah that pisses me off'.

- Report comments/ posts if you think they are behaving abusively

- Voice opinion regarding behaviour of mods and/ or Leo, non-abusively, if you think they are not responding reasonably to abusive behaviour or engaging in it themselves.

- Show an understanding of the other person's position.

- Don't invalidate the other person's feelings, i.e. 'you are a pussy if you feel scared', or 'don't worry'

----------------------------------------

I like that you made this post btw. I've decided to intend to have a read through that book about impossible conversations that I believe you said Leo recommended you.

[Thought Art]

@Ulax Thanks for contributing those ideas. I think they are valuable to this thread and the forum. 
 

Yea, Leo recommended it to me yesterday. I’m gonna order it in November.

[UnbornTao]

A ton of what passes as communication is actually manipulation, both subtle and gross.

One way to go about it is by contemplating the difference between the two: What's communication? What is its purpose? What makes it powerful, effective? How does it differ from manipulation?

I think those are great questions to ponder on our own.

[Thought Art]

11 minutes ago, Loba said:

  I kind of view this post as semi-controlling and a need to direct other people into reacting or following their spiritual journey in a way that one person sees fit, and I don't think that works. 

Ironic ahah

What’s controlling about it?

[Thought Art]

14 minutes ago, Loba said:

No one really needs to work on developing better communication with anyone

Why do you think that?

 

[Thought Art]

@Loba Thanks for sharing. 
 

I’ll reply to the first question you ask. I’m not trying to crack people open to food them with my world view. I think that’s what most people HAVE been doing and I’d like to do something more nuanced going forward. I’d like to understand others, and be understood and open up the field of interpretations. Instead of just bickering and stuff. 
 

No one else needs to do what I’m doing. This is something I’m interested. Especially in the spiritual and political sections things just spiral into none sense and pettiness. 
 

Hehe, “everything is as it should be” and here I am.

I won’t be completely passive either. This is something I’m exploring. 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Thought Art

[LastThursday]

17 hours ago, Thought Art said:

When I am speaking with people on the forum for example I'd like to begin communicating in a more conscious, loving and healthy way that allows each thread the opportunity for maximum growth, depth, and love for everyone involved. 

I like the sentiment. We can only choose to take this on for ourselves though.

Any prescription for how a group of people should conduct themselves will always have inherent bias, even if not intended - and this goes against freedom of expression. In a sense we need the good the bad and ugly for us to realise what's good, bad and ugly in the first place. That way we learn and grow the most, even if the experience is rough.

This place is also very transient and people come and go constantly. How would newcomers immediately take on the task of "communicating in a concious, loving and healthy way", if they haven't experienced this before or don't know what it is? I'm guessing most of the demographic here are young inexperienced males with testosterone coursing through their veins.

I don't have solid answers. One way is to obviously have rules in place (with their inherent bias) and to police it. Personally, I would have a zero tolerance policy on all the sorts of -isms, but there's always grey areas even here - who am I to be prescriptive on how to handle the edge cases? Or another way is to "lead by example", but this responsibility would then have to fall on those members that stick around long enough to employ it - I guess that's what your advocating for yourself.

Edited October 20, 2022 by LastThursday