Are Narcissists a Lost Cause?

[SQAAD]

I have been intrigued a lot by narcissists. I really despise them. They represent everything i hate about the human race. Egotism, self-centeredness, lack of empathy, stupidity, spiritual myopia & etc

From what i've understood so far, narcissitsts seem like a lost cause... Most psychologists say there is little that can be done to treat narcissism... Again i don't firmly believe this. Because i know that psychologists and psychiatrists have no clue yet about mental health. We are still in the dark ages as far as mental health goes.

Do you think that narcissists are a lost cause? They seem to be stuck at a really low dense state of Consciousness. A level of Consciousness that is hard to be understood from people like us who are into spirituality, caring for others , more open and free, etc.

Edited June 5, 2022 by SQAAD

[Ulax]

Nah not a lost cause imo. Just had an unfortunate life which has pushed parts into adopting extreme, yet well meaning roles.

IFS can deal with it. Tho, I think it would require a managerial part to be open to the treatment modality for there to be a change, which, with a narcissistic psychic structure, may not be likely.

I've heard good things from the psychodynamic realm, too i.e. Otto Kernberg and Frank Yeomans. I find Kernberg's theory of NPD pretty interesting. He believes that Narcissistic structure is a defence structure that sit atop a BPD structure. So, once you deal with the NPD you have to deal with BPD. (Btw BPD = Borderline personality disorder, and NPD = Narcissistic PD)

Though, from what I understand, it can be fucking tough re the psychodynamic route.

And ye I agree re the dark ages of mental health. Mainstream stuff like CBT isn't going to do anything substantial for NPD sufferers. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Ulax

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, SQAAD said:

I have been intrigued a lot by narcissists. I really despise them. They represent everything i hate about the human race. Egotism, self-centeredness, lack of empathy, stupidity, spiritual myopia & etc

From what i've understood so far, narcissitsts seem like a lost cause... Most psychologists say there is little that can be done to treat narcissism... Again i don't firmly believe this. Because i know that psychologists and psychiatrists have no clue yet about mental health. We are still in the dark ages as far as mental health goes.

Do you think that narcissists are a lost cause? They seem to be stuck at a really low dense state of Consciousness. A level of Consciousness that is hard to be understood from people like us who are into spirituality, caring for others , more open and free, etc.

I've done extensive study on narcissists, are they a lost cause? No, there is recent breakthrough therapy systems in place RIGHT NOW that have produced results. 

Sam Vaknim  is a narcissism researcher who was diagnosed with Narcissism Personality Disorder and is one of the foremost experts on it. He was able to overcome his issues while also coming up with a therapy to help Narcissists become normal.

Narcissists  have an underdeveloped ego. Because of this their ability to connect meaningful with anyone is hampered. Dr. Vaknim believes it is a kind of PTSD. He refers to it being a PTCT or a form of complex trauma. Narcissists are created and it happens in the formative years.

You should really lose your hatred for narcissism. Narcissists suffer, they are full of shame, guilt, and walk around with a feeling of emptiness within. Narcissists in some ways are closer to God realization hilariously. Because they see everyone as an extension of themselves, which is why they have poor boundaries. In fact Dr. Vaknim says Narcissism is a kind of religion as well. His theory is a little confusing for me, I might need to study it further to really get it down. 

But as a diagnosed Narcissist it is nice to be able to hear how they view reality. They view it completely different. Narcissists cannot help but be the way they are, but Dr. Vaknim believes he can SHOCK them back into the proper development they were supposed to go through.

According to him they are stuck in arrested development, and he claims his therapy method called "Cold Therapy" can shock them back into a proper psychological development. According to him, when it comes to ego development they are behind toddlers.

[Breakingthewall]

The problem with narcissists is that to stop being narcissistic they have to adopt a very brave, sincere and noble attitude, and it happens that they are narcissists due to lack of courage, sincerity and nobility. so it is a very difficult and unlikely revolution that would have to happen to radically change their way of being

[Breakingthewall]

36 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Sam Vaknim

Very interesting 

[Razard86]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Very interesting 

I had found a lesser known Narcissism psychologist researcher who said she had success as well. I just like Sam because he was diagnosed as one. Many of the terminologies used he coined. For example he coined the term "flying monkeys."

[Breakingthewall]

I'm reading here

 https://samvak.tripod.com/

Absolutely interesting. 

I have lived closely with a true narcissist, my father, and for me it has been a great challenge to stop hating. It had poison inside, 24/7.  I feel sympathy nowadays, pity. I know what he suffered, his fear, his terrible insecurity. His life was very difficult, a lot of suffering, no one second of resting 

[Raze]

IFS therapy has shown good results for helping narcissists 

[puporing]

My mom. She had unleashed all her anger onto me as I was growing up but twisted as "love", I think this is partly why I have so many health issues. I don't recommend being close to a narcissist. When I first tried to break the chain in my 20s, she immediately wanted to adopt another kid so she can leech off of.

She is only slowly changing now after years since I stopped "feeding her", not feeding it helps I think, but it's a very slow thing and she's still very childlike and prone to it. Not counting on it I feel like it's the kind of thing that they internally has to want to change/evolve, they cannot be "forced" into it, and good therapy for it is hard to come by nor do they usually want to see a therapist.

So yeah.. hard for me to see much hope in it, I can find love for her better at a distance right now, but kudos for anyone who have the patience to figure it out, as outsiders. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by puporing

[SQAAD]

@Razard86

7 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You should really lose your hatred for narcissism. Narcissists suffer, they are full of shame, guilt, and walk around with a feeling of emptiness within. Narcissists in some ways are closer to God realization hilariously. Because they see everyone as an extension of themselves, which is why they have poor boundaries.

I don't believe that. They see everyone as extension of themselves? What??

Someone who has tons of empathy and compassion sees everyone as an extension of themselves. Narcissists lack empathy. They are the worst of the worst along with psychopaths. They have no moral qualms about hurting you or exploiting you. Its all about their own little petty ego. A very low level to be stuck in indeed.

And yes you are right. From what i understand all narcisissts have been hurt and traumatized by other people when they were kids. This has made them, inflict suffering on others, without any remorse. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by SQAAD

[SQAAD]

@puporing

4 hours ago, puporing said:

My mom. She had unleashed all her anger onto me as I was growing up but twisted as "love", I think this is partly why I have so many health issues. I don't recommend being close to a narcissist. When I first tried to break the chain in my 20s, she immediately wanted to adopt another kid so she can leech off of.

She is only slowly changing now after years since I stopped "feeding her", not feeding it helps I think, but it's a very slow thing and she's still very childlike and prone to it. Not counting on it I feel like it's the kind of thing that they internally has to want to change/evolve, they cannot be "forced" into it, and good therapy for it is hard to come by nor do they usually want to see a therapist.

So yeah.. hard for me to see much hope in it, I can find love for her better at a distance right now, but kudos for anyone who have the patience to figure it out, as outsiders. 

Damn, you must have had a really difficult time... Narcissists are really really toxic and will drain everything out of you eventually. I try to avoid them at all cost.

Marrying a narcissts or working for a narcissist is a recipe for disaster. 

[something_else]

The problem is that in order to create meaningful change, you usually need to admit  that you are not perfect, or that there are problems with yourself.

Which is by definition what a narcissist struggles with the most

[puporing]

On 05/06/2022 at 11:31 PM, SQAAD said:

@puporing

Damn, you must have had a really difficult time... Narcissists are really really toxic and will drain everything out of you eventually. I try to avoid them at all cost.

Marrying a narcissts or working for a narcissist is a recipe for disaster. 

Yes, my dad is also mostly a narcissist, so yeah. I basically had "no parents", they were not there for me on an emotional level. It's always about their problems. The best thing a narcissist can do is not to have kids, but they often do. 

[Razard86]

On 6/5/2022 at 6:49 PM, Breakingthewall said:

I'm reading here

 https://samvak.tripod.com/

Absolutely interesting. 

I have lived closely with a true narcissist, my father, and for me it has been a great challenge to stop hating. It had poison inside, 24/7.  I feel sympathy nowadays, pity. I know what he suffered, his fear, his terrible insecurity. His life was very difficult, a lot of suffering, no one second of resting 

Yes Narcissist suffer the most. They also have the strongest attachment to ego than anyone else. Its funny, how an underdeveloped ego has a stronger attachment than a normal one. But that is just how Narcissism works.

[Razard86]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:26 AM, SQAAD said:

@Razard86

I don't believe that. They see everyone as extension of themselves? What??

Someone who has tons of empathy and compassion sees everyone as an extension of themselves. Narcissists lack empathy. They are the worst of the worst along with psychopaths. They have no moral qualms about hurting you or exploiting you. Its all about their own little petty ego. A very low level to be stuck in indeed.

And yes you are right. From what i understand all narcisissts have been hurt and traumatized by other people when they were kids. This has made them, inflict suffering on others, without any remorse. 

Yes they see everyone as an extension of themselves which is why they have no boundaries. How do you not understand that? You see it is all how you look at it. You see everyone as an extension of yourself, but you also simultaneously see the person as separate and sovereign. A Narcissist sees NO SEPERATION. They literally BELIEVE YOU ARE REQUIRED TO SERVE THEM. Because you ARE THEM. If you listen to reports of narcissist psychological reports  they have feelings of an infinite void of nothingness. Sound familiar? They feel those they connect with are them, they don't feel like they have an identity, they feel an infinite void of nothingness.

Notice all those things I just said. What do they sound like?

Edited June 10, 2022 by Razard86

[Razard86]

3 minutes ago, Loba said:

@Razard86 Oh they don't suffer at all, they love what they do and have full control over themselves.  Only the covert ones suffer, but the ones who are big and into themselves, it's like a religion for them.  They LOVE it.  They're not hurting.  That's a misconception.  

You see what you want to see. Here is something you don't know, if you demonize a narcissist what does that make you? Sam Vaknim even said that. He said a clue that you are a narcissist is if you demonize them. I don't know if you realize, but narcissists turn others into them. They are parasitical. If you are not careful you will start to think like them. To demonize a narcissist is to become them.

[Zeroguy]

@Razard86 Sounds like:

narcissists.org

Did I got it right?

[Razard86]

15 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You see what you want to see. Here is something you don't know, if you demonize a narcissist what does that make you? Sam Vaknim even said that. He said a clue that you are a narcissist is if you demonize them. I don't know if you realize, but narcissists turn others into them. They are parasitical. If you are not careful you will start to think like them. To demonize a narcissist is to become them.

11 minutes ago, Loba said:

@Razard86 You must have never had to deal with a real one.

I'm healed from them, that's why I don't offer them any of my juju juice.

If you wanna think I am one, go for it, no skin off my nose dude.

I dealt with a Narcissist my whole life. My Dad was one and the last relationship I was with one. Its not think...I know. You don't understand what Narcissism is based on your responses. All Narcissism is just egoism. So with that in mind we all have narcissism within us. Its a spectrum. Any psychologist would tell you that. So...if you demonize somebody for having something in you that makes you just as guilty as them.

Leo did a whole video on this. A tell tell sign of a Demon, is one who demonizes others. Sam Vaknim said that you if demonize a Narcissist then you are one. 

Who does the ego do? Says I am good, but they are bad. What do Narcissists do? They take no responsibility for their actions, but love telling others they need to take responsibility for their actions. Narcissists are self-righteous, Narcissists avoid accountability, Narcissists love to put others down to feel good about themselves. Now explain to me how a person who operates like this IS NOT SUFFERING?

You really have no clue how they work. Narcissists are hypocrites to the extreme. Do you even know what projection is? My gosh there would be too much to educate you on right. Just understand that nobody suffers more than Narcissists because they hate their reflection. 

[Breakingthewall]

11 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

You see what you want to see. Here is something you don't know, if you demonize a narcissist what does that make you? Sam Vaknim even said that. He said a clue that you are a narcissist is if you demonize them. I don't know if you realize, but narcissists turn others into them. They are parasitical. If you are not careful you will start to think like them. To demonize a narcissist is to become them.

Absolutely. You understand the narcissism very deeply. I spent my teenage years trying to be a narcissist. I can tell that this leads to levels of suffering and isolation that are no joke. I realized it, and it took time to stop hating. all the hatred that was in me was exactly proportional to the narcissism that was in me. now I think of my father with sympathy, pity, really. At the time, this would have seemed completely impossible. the twist of my mind to achieve it was beyond what I could see. I had to give up narcissism. it is not something that can be explained or understood in words. It's a very strange twist of yourself, of the reality 

[Razard86]

11 minutes ago, Loba said:

@Razard86 You don't understand... no you don't understand... I don't feel the need to turn this into a heated debate.

This isn't a "who's been abused by a narc more" conversation.

I've dealt with them, I know 'em well enough - just because you think you have a better answer than me doesn't negate what I went through - but I'm over it.

Some narcs suffer.  Most do not.  But by all means, have pity for them.  You can take what would be my pity, because I have none.

Also, yikes, you're kind of over-emotional here, don't you think?

Also, good for you, for knowing so much about the disorder, here's a gold star.  *pinches your cheek*  Bye bye now.  

1. Saying no you don't understand is not an argument you are not even making any points. Seriously.

There is not a single Narcissist who doesn't suffer shame, or guilt. The fact that you think there are shows you do not understand how human psychology works. You do not understand the underlying themes and motivations that push individual and collective human behavior. If you did you would know why Narcissists do what they do. How much have you studied the topic? What are the common causes associated with people who have this issue? These are all questions you do not have. Why? Because it is MUCH EASIER TO DEMONIZE SOMETHING THAT HARMS YOU WHICH IS A NARSISSISTIC TRAIT.

A non narcissistic trait is an attempt to understand what causes something. If the world world took your approach to narcissism with every other personality disorder then the mental health field wouldn't exist. But no, because your individual pain is so important you deny the existence of the pain of narcissist. You refuse to understand them, and you demonize them. All you have shown on this forum is that when you talk about Narcissists you become one when discussing them. This is why I said they are parasitic. If you do not have a strong foundation, a narcissist will turn you into one.

So yeah you can continue the snide comments, but all you are doing is revealing the Narcissist inside of you. So continue to be self-righteous and demonize them, you are only displaying the same behavior they do. Which is exactly what they want.