My gf isn't a virgin.. and it's troubling me. What should I do?

[Lyubov]

@Bobby_2021 You basically have two choices here.
 

The first is you either work towards accepting her past and the way she is, which will probably surface a lot of anger, envy, etc. This is the choice that you want to be with her. She can’t change the past. This won’t be easy but if you deep down want to be with her you’re going to have to work on this cause the relationship will erode and become toxic. 

The second is you look for a woman that has a different past that you will easterly accept. Nothing wrong with this one either. Everyone has different preferences and different compatibility. 

if you let this sit and don’t try to work on it I don’t see a relationship not a marriage working out.

[bejapuskas]

@Bobby_2021  Ok maybe you meant it that "her value" is your perception of datability, your preference, which is obviously on you to decide, I just got triggered by the wording then. 

I have lived in India for a year and a half and I know what kind of things can happen there, you never know. Been invited to child wedding also. Discriminatory ideas about women are normalized to a high degree in so many households. Not all of them. There is not anything wrong with your stage blue ideology if it is decided upon consensually, but not if an insecure man imposes his anxiety on the woman who is slut shamed if she divorces this anxious man and is then labelled as "not a virgin anymore therefore less valuable" by other such men. 

I hate western culture too, trust me. But I do not understand what else other than your bottomless assumption and superior physical power made you think that you are to be the leader? Ofc man can suffer from a dominant woman who might divorce him because she just thinks he has to earn more than her for example, but that is another story. I don't understand your assumption of patriarchy.

To give context, one of my exes was from an arranged marriage, where the wife was highly educated, two degrees, could easily earn money. The husband did not have education, was earning money in some corrupt ways. Yet, she got enslaved by the husband's family, because she was assigned female gender at birth.

Not separating and staying in shit can also be bad for the kid, maybe worse. Sure, keep demonizing my stage green ideas, but that will not save your relationship from insecurity.

[puporing]

I have a cousin in China who is 40+ and a pretty cool guy. But he has trouble finding a partner. Couple years ago he eventually did and they both liked each other. But because the woman had a brief previous marriage with no children, his mom disapproved it and made him give her up. 

Similarly another Chinese girl I knew was slut shamed for having had two boyfriends in China, she later married to a foreigner.

And then they despise women who marry foreigners...

Pretty extreme and unhealthy manifestation of stage blue value around relationships that should be questioned.

Edited January 12, 2022 by puporing

[Bobby_2021]

23 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

@Bobby_2021

I hate western culture too, trust me. But I do not understand what else other than your bottomless assumption and superior physical power made you think that you are to be the leader? Ofc man can suffer from a dominant woman who might divorce him because she just thinks he has to earn more than her for example, but that is another story. I don't understand your assumption of patriarchy.

Pretty bold of you to admit that you hate the west. Typical of Green.

But why?

You don't have to do this after studying spiral dynamics. The main point of SD is to see the *validity* of the lower stages and accept them for who they are. 

Living 500 years ago, if you didn't accept stage red, you would die. Stage red has some very valuable lessons and isn't something that must seen with resentment.

Circumstances make people ideological.

Ideologies don't create circumstances.

If everyone is india is given the living standards that people enjoy in Sweden, trust me, most Indians will turn into feminist weed smoking hippies. ?

But right now, the *circumstances* are too harsh to allow that. So most people do the things at different without a choice. 

Why should I be the leader?

Because I don't see how a lot of girls approach me, take responsibility for planning dates, take me to places, be a pillar for emotional support etc.

How can someone who can't even decide which place to eat be a leader??

Girls hate it when they have to make decisions. They may even feel creeped out when they have to make too many decisions. 

Girls are naturally submissive. 

That's just my observation.

That makes me want to be the leader.

Nature is not answerable to all your notions of equality. I am sorry.

No matter how much hippy dippy you are, any collectivist institution will NOT survive without a strong leader.

Can women take that role?

Always welcome.

But she maybe lowering prospects in her game of survival. So yeah. 

 

I had such a wonderful exchange with you. Thanks for being so  nice.
 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

At stage green cheating is not necessarily a bad thing.

After all sexual needs are needs right.

What if you can get your sexual needs satisfied by a person other than your spouse?

What if someone other than your spouse can satisfy you even more sexually?

There is no law in the universe which says you can have sex with your spouse only.

If your spouse dosen't like it, you shouldn't care too much, since they may be toxic in preventing you from getting your needs satisfied. 

 

Can you really accept and embody it in real life?

If your answer is not yes, then you are lower than stage green. You have a mere rubbing of stage green with aspects of blue/orange.

 

Don't overestimate your development.

 

Just a random food for thought.

[Bobby_2021]

1 hour ago, puporing said:

I have a cousin in China who is 40+ and a pretty cool guy. But he has trouble finding a partner. Couple years ago he eventually did and they both liked each other.

But because the woman had a brief previous marriage with no children, his mom disapproved it and made him give her up. 

Good. Mom made the correct choice.

The probability of a divorce in second time marriages are quite higher than first time marriage.

Divorce = Lose half of your net worth and pay child support and alimony for the rest of your life.

(Don't know how it works in China)

How about you see the validity of stage blue too?

P.S there isn't anything partriachal about waiting till age 40+ to marry.

Under strictly patriarchal societies marriage happens at  around half that age lol.

The guy couldn't find a girl he wants in his prime, so settled for anything he can get. 

The girl also probably knows that she may not get higher value men too.

P.S don't be triggered when I say value.

High value means higher chances of survival of yourself and your progeny.

High chances of survival also attracts high demand which further increases the perceived value.

It's all just a survival game in the end.

Sorry for being too real.

[puporing]

@Bobby_2021 I don't know enough about divorce laws in China. But my cousin is from a poor family so.. I'm not sure how that even factors in. There's also no child support in China. Again your arguments don't line up with the context (you're applying western laws and standards to a deep red/blue society), and of course I don't know every detail of the situation. 

I have no issues with men marrying 40+ or any age, or not at all, all I was pointing out was my cousin wants to find a partner and he's been looking and looking, and his mom is preventing it from happening and he is allowing it. Due to some prejudice and his inability to go beyond his family system

Edited January 12, 2022 by puporing

[Bobby_2021]

2 minutes ago, puporing said:

@Bobby_2021 I don't know enough about divorce laws in China. But my cousin is from a poor family so.. I'm not sure how that even factors in. There's also no child support in China. Again your arguments don't line up with the context and of course I don't know every detail of the situation. 

I have no issues with men marrying 40+ , all I was pointing out was my cousin wants to find a partner desperately and his mom is preventing it from happening and he is allowing it. Due to some prejudice and his inability to go beyond his family system

That's ok. I already admitted I don't know the details. Divorce is terrible no matter in whatever part of the world. That is not the only reasoning that mom mat have used.

My point was that such a thing won't be happening even in poor partriachal families, atleast in where I live. Whenever a child is born, the family collectively works to acquire resources for the marriage of the child.

Waiting that long is typical is families with working culture (orange) or hippie culture, you know, these independent types who keeps exploring.

Anyways I wish your cousin all the best. 

Cheers.

[Thunder Kiss]

@Bobby_2021 just out of curiosity, what led you to this dating forum that is very stage orange and centred around promoting pickup and sleeping with lots of women?  Is that something you are also interested in?  

[something_else]

The part about your argument that I find weird is that you're dead set on the stage blue ideal while acknowledging that there are stages above, or other perspectives that are generally more developed

Are you planning on creating the perfect stage blue life? Sure, by all means try to do that. But you're acknowledging that there are perhaps better ways to live and rather than trying to develop towards those you are digging your heels in the mud with family values ideology. And that heel-digging goes against what most people in this forum are here for which is development

I refuse to accept that there are not orange, green and yellow people or relationships in India. Why not construct such a relationship? It sounds like the girl you're with is certainly beyond blue, why not rise with her? Or why not move to a country where such a thing is more mainstream? That is the advice you will receive here because this is a forum about development!

Or you can stick your heels in the mud at blue if that's where you feel like you should be. Of course there's nothing wrong with it, you can live your life however you please. But why not aspire to further development? 

[puporing]

38 minutes ago, something_else said:

The part about your argument that I find weird is that you're dead set on the stage blue ideal while acknowledging that there are stages above, or other perspectives that are generally more developed

Probably fear of having to let go of a survival strategy that is more convenient/straightforward and beneficial to the ego, fear around losing a bunch of money.. understandable but nonetheless has its problems.

38 minutes ago, something_else said:

And that heel-digging goes against what most people in this forum are here for which is development

This. It would be hard to find someone on this forum who will validate the unhealthy manifestations of the previous stages.

Edited January 12, 2022 by puporing

[somegirl]

51 minutes ago, something_else said:

It sounds like the girl you're with is certainly beyond blue, why not rise with her?

He can't because that girl has slept with more than one man in her entire life and that somehow means the marriage won't be as stable and she won't be as invested as she would be as a virgin. Because virgins are the best. 

[somegirl]

@Bobby_2021 Have you been in a relationship before?

[Nahm]

But her past keeps bugging me. 

I want to maximize the success of my marriage. That's the only thing I value.

The main issue that bugging me is her past, and that she isn't a virgin. That's all.

As I said this is purely concerned with results and making some institution work.

Women serving men is necessary for the survival of the family. Man is the leader and woman is the follower. Women serve men.

The kind of mental gymnastics people play here and pretend that they don't know is just hilarious to me.

 

Value isn’t “relative”, it’s your opinion, your way of thinking about people. It’s just a belief.  It involves the mental gymnastics of rationalizing, justifying and defending your judgments and hypocrisy.  The surprising thing here is that she wants to be with you given you’re projecting this way of thinking and all of your unresolved inner conflicts onto her. At least she’s honest. It’s surprising any female wants to spend time with any male thinking about females the way you are. Makes me wonder why she wants to. 

[Preety_India]

Just now, modmyth said:

People really need to stop with this harmful social rhetoric. If people who have been raped believe you, then we're already screwed before we really get out of the gate with this "healing" business.

I'm so glad you said this. At least someone who sees bad things being spoken so openly on this thread. I was so hesitant on saying anything on this thread. I am an Indian girl who comes from a culture where the social rhetoric is that if a girl is raped, she is damaged goods who should never get a chance to marry or have a partner. In fact the social ostracization of raped women is so harsh in our country that raped girls are often told their life is not worth living and many of them opt suicide. 

Thanks for your comment. At least someone understands the gravity of the issue 

 

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, modmyth said:

It's an important issue here as well, even if there is some split in our perspective between different groups of people, and also what people say in public vs. what they say/ do/ think more privately (like when you're the most vulnerable, that's where you tend to find the most people coming out the woodwork and then it's clear what they REALLY think). But our issues are still more "first world problem" compared to India, for sure...

Yep. Completely agree and love how you put it. 

 

[Bobby_2021]

I needed advice on a particular topic at a time when I was overthinking and desperate and I got it.

Thanks to everyone on this thread.

But responding to every comment in this thread is inviting a reaction.

Not a response.

So I won't be doing it.

Also there is nothing wrong with being in a "lower stage" . Spiral dynamics is not something to be taken as an absolute. It's really funny.

Plenty of people at blue live fulfilling lives even better than orange or green, because of their commitment and discipline, which are much needed values for marriage and family.

Pickup and having sex is all fun and games till you are 40. Now you need a stable marriage. It's sad to see many 40 year old woman waiting at bars to have some man come to them to fulfill their need for intimacy and connection. They slowly get pushed to the sidelines. Pickup works only fir a short period if time. I hope you see it.

Note that you casting me as blue and saying that I have to "develop to a higher stage" is itself a *value* judgement. 

Somewhere in the back of your mind, you believe that blue is low value and that's why I need to increase my value.?

In reality the only thing you need to change is toxic aspects of the stages. Which, surprisingly happens at every other stage.

There is nothing toxic about *preferences*. About not wanting something.

I am not obliged to explain my preferences either. About why I don't prefer something in my partner.

I simply walk away.

I prefer something over the other because that benifits my survival and my survival makes no sense to you because you are not me.

And you do survival too. Quite impressively. And there is nothing wrong about it. Don't judge the survival values of others.

[bejapuskas]

@Bobby_2021 You are justifying your toxic behavior by saying it is ok to be that way from a place of privilege where you are not likely to be slut shamed like your love interest is. What would help your relationship stability more than virginity status would be honest communication. I bet the girl doesnt know about all the crap you have said here about her, otherwise she would have left. And it wouldnt be her not surviving, but you. I understand youve had those beliefs instilled in your mind by the culture you grew up in, but this is not a forum where we excuse low consciousness behavior like you do for yourself. I have given you Indian examples of how your ideology is based on nonsense and your mind rejected it, exactly because it is biased. There is nothing wrong about you essentially, just your beliefs, words, behavior etc. You are perfect, but you believe limiting bullshit about yourself which is hopefully going to make the girl leave you. 

[something_else]

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Note that you casting me as blue and saying that I have to "develop to a higher stage" is itself a *value* judgement. 

Note that I said no such thing. I simply suggested that you could if you wish and may be happier as a result

Speak to many traditional, conservative old people and they will often tell you that they regret how rigid they were in earlier life and wished they'd explored more before settling down in like their early twenties. That is essentially them regretting not developing to a more orangey lifestyle when they were younger. I'm pretty sure the two bits of advice I've had from most of the older generation I know is 'go explore the world' and 'dont settle down too early'

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

In reality the only thing you need to change is toxic aspects of the stages. Which, surprisingly happens at every other stage.

There is nothing toxic about *preferences*. About not wanting something.

Uhm. There can be. If you're a pedophile that's an incredibly toxic preference

I know what you mean, but if you have unhealthy preferences it can be very toxic for you and those around you

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Pickup and having sex is all fun and games till you are 40. Now you need a stable marriage

Marriage is a dying concept. I have no plans of getting married. Why the fuck do I need the government in my relationship? I'll settle down with someone I love but I'm not getting married, I find the whole idea of marriage dumb as shit, especially if you're a dude

If you actually love the person you are with you can make it work without involving the government.

Problem is if your partner is chosen for you or you settle down early there's a very very high chance that you aren't suited and thus you need the government to introduce barriers to prevent you from separating. Pickup exists to allow men to sort through partners until they find one they truly match with. Women don't really need pickup for this, they just need to explore and find the best man they can