Is A So-called 'enlightened Devil' Really Enlightened?

[WaveInTheOcean]

Haven't watched the whole video yet (Leo's Zen-devil video). Interesting none the less. I have watched 30 mins of it. But I wanna give ya'll my take on it - because why not.

I feel like what you call "small non-duality" is not really enlightenment.

I can see the point in making a distinction between an enlightened 'Master' and an enlightened 'Devil'.

However... In my eyes, I would say that a so-called 'Enlightened Devil' is not really enlightened. Such a person probably has great logical understanding of non-duality and has probably had some deep awakening experiences. Yet, I would say he hasn't gone deep enough and hasn't got a True intuitive understanding of reality in his heart. Because as I see it ... The Zen Devil only intuitvely feels that 'he is nothing' -- so nothing matters right? That's his mindset. But he hasn't got the full picture. The opposite statement "I am everything" also needs to incorporated, as that is JUST as true as the "I am nothing"-statement. A master has both the "I am everything"-feeling and the "I am nothing"-feeling deep in his heart. It melts together to a true non-dual perspective on life, whereas the Zen devil only has  half of the picture in his heart.. namely the "I am nothing"-part.

“Wisdom is knowing I am nothing,

Love is knowing I am everything,

and between the two my life moves.”  - Nisargadatta

All of reality is apparently dualistic. Two opposite concepts are dependent on each other. The "I am nothing"-view cannot exist without the "I am everything"-view. Both statements are equally true and false. Truth with a capital T only comes when you see that both statements are two sides of the same coin, and that's it that single coin itself that is Reality with a capital R. Then we got True non-dualism.

If we make the analogy and say that Life is like a ludo boardgame... where we have people playing the game.

Most persons don't REALLY love the game. They both love it and hate it dependently on how their colour is doing in game. They identify only partly with the game. They identify with their colour (ego) and thus they can both feel happiness and suffer. Such a person put immense meaning in what's happening in the game to him or her. It's of uttermost importance that he or she win. The game has so much meaning to them. The person attaches him or herself to the color in the game. Deep attachment.

An enlightened person identify with the all of the game ... All that's happening... Not just part of the game. Such a person thus loves the game truly. Unconditional love. No matter what happens in the game, the person is full of love to it. This person know that there's no deeper meaning with the game besides the game.  Nothing that happens in the game ultimately matters. This person doesn't attach to anything that happens in the game, yet the person plays the game with great passion - because the person loves the game.. He know that his true self is the whole game, all that's happening.

Now, Ludo is a bad analogy, because Ludo is an individualized-driven game lol.. but replace Ludo with life, and you get the point I guess.

[WaveInTheOcean]

"And you may not have as much choice about it as you think you do."

I think it can be dangerous to go with that mindset. I mean. Yes, obviously ULTIMATELY, we don't have free will. From the highest, highest perspective, the body and mind of "yours" are operated by "God's hand". God plays dice and move the pieces (bodies/minds) around on the board (board game analogy). Ultimately, thus, you are God. You are the hand of God, you are the dice, you are the board itself ... in a way.

However, believing "I don't have any choice" is also a belief, it's also a choice to believe that. So... My point is.. You have to live life as you're free. Truth is, you are also free from the highest perspective. From the highest perspective you are infinite and free. So again, my point is, yes, you don't have free will as the ego running around here on earth. But .. even though you dont, you should absolutely -- if you want to live  truly -- live as you do have free will. 

From the highest point of view, you, yes you, do have choices in front of you, and you can pick whichever you want

Sartre believed in free will. He was delusional in many ways. However, I like his quote: "Humans are condemned to be free" ... The feeling that we are free to do whatever we want -- because of our minds -- -- unlike animals who don't really have a mind -- is both a gift and a burden. Use the gift (the mind) wisely  Don't become delusional.

Edited December 21, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Egoisego]

You see this concept of unconditional love you have is just as real as hitlers thought sbout superiority

[Leo Gura]

I don't think you guys appreciate the degree of depth of insight possible.

However amazing you might think your first enlightenment is, I'd bet good money that it can go 1000x deeper.

Consider, your current position is one of assuming you know better than a master with 40 years experience who has innate, near-superhuman spiritual capacities compared to you, and 20,000-40,000 hours of practice in contemplation.

You will never know how deep you didn't go. And no one will ever be able to tell you.

Is that a chance you wanna take?

To do what instead? Eat Cheetos while watching TV?

[Neo]

Just as a light hearted break from the discussion; @Leo Gura have you ever really said about anything at all, "that's it, we're done here, let's go home, watch cartoons and eat pizza!"? lol  

[ajasatya]

no. they're not enlightened at all. they've just found excuses for their ego's comfort, laziness and arrogance.

[Debbie B]

Well, I am new to this forum and new to this whole concept of ...not sure how to describe it...lets say 'Truth'.  I find it is easy to accept we are part of one.  What I fail to understand is, why it is something worth attaining?  It is already.  I am just confused about most of these discussions.  I am sure I must be missing something.....

[Egoisego]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

able to tell you.

Is that a chance you wanna take?

 

[Egoisego]

there is something wrong about those edits.

 

 

well. you shouldnt really hope for a comming deeeeeep insight, you are no more than a scientologist who want the next course if you think like that.

 

 

enlightenment doesnt want you or it could, what does it mean?

 

be here now instead

[WaveInTheOcean]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

However amazing you might think your first enlightenment is, I'd bet good money that it can go 1000x deeper.

That's the nature of reality, isn't it Leo?  It's infinite beyond language, space, time. Even an enlightened master with 100.000 hours of practice and wisdom can still go infinitely deeper. Sort of scary to think about, but then again, also amazing.

38 minutes ago, Egoisego said:

You see this concept of unconditional love you have is just as real as hitlers thought sbout superiority

Hehe. 

- Every humans deepest desire is to feel content. Happiness is everyone's goal. Yet how we reach happiness differs a lot. Most people do it by attaching themselve to external things (relationships, sex, money, "success", respect by others, big house, cars, having kids who you want to be as you, etc)

- Yet the only way to find CONSTANT happiness is by looking inwards and finding it in your true self... discovering your true nature.

- When you become enlightened you intuively identify everything "you" experience as "you". You have found constant happiness inside the mind/body you're currently in. But since you see everything as you ("we are all one"), you will want to eliminate pain where you see it. You want other 'ego's' to become free and to find the inner happiness. And that desire right there, is uncondtional love. A true understanding of all reality. 

Another way to explain unconditional love is from the opposite statement which is also incoporated into the enlightened persons "heart", and that is the statement "I am nothing". By having this feeling natural in the heart (not feeling one self as an individual ego) no persons can hurt you anymore (expect physically maybe). So because you can't be hurt, naturally, all you can give in return is love to all of reality.

You see everything from the highest perspective, and from the highest perspective, everything combined is in total harmony. Everything that happens, happens ... you don't fight it. You embrace reality. That's unconditional love. I have briefly experienced this, but I'm nowhere near to obtain unconditional love for all of reality, yet. There's a long way to go, and I think the way is infinite. That is to say.. ABSOLUTE 'unconditional love' all the time is maybe impossible to achieve. But it's possible to get approximate it and get very close to the state all the time. And when you are so close, that 99% of the time you feel love to all of reality ... that's when you are enlightened.

Obviously your ego now comes up with all sort of stories like the one "The concept of unconidtional love is just as real as Hitlers thought about superiority". This is one big pile of bulshit created by your ego. You haven't experienced unconditional love, and you somehow also currently lack the logical capabilities to understand it on a conceptual level, even though conceptual is always subpar to direct experience of course. That is to say, if you some day experience it, then logic doesn't matter anyway

Let me briefly experience the difference between "your limited view on what love is", and what "True Unconditional love is".... 

When you love someone in a relationship, most of the time it's a dependent relationship, and you only love the image you have in your head of the other person. So if the person suddenly does something that doesn't match with your image of that person, then you suddenly hate the person. For example if your girlfriend kisses with someone else to a party... You hate her, and probably want to break up with her... See that's false love, you only loved her when she acted like you expected her to act... You loved the projection you created of her. You didn't really love her...

Two great videos on 'false love' vs 'true love' (in a relationship-context though) :
 

Yet, again, we're just talking on a conceptual level. It's good and all, but it's great to have experienced linving in a dependent relationship...you learn. You develop. Experience is key to self-development in all areas of live.

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Also totally off-topic. About Athenes Logic nation stuff. I think his idea about integrating "logic" as a core value on an emotional level is a pretty powerful idea that can be very practical for many. Yes, it has nothing to do with enlightenment. I sort of understand Leo's critic of it. Yet I would say that Leo already has logic as a core value on an emotional level. It depends on what you define logic as. Athene defines logic as the "patterns that govern reality"... Well, hey - one of those patterns is that it's not possible to use logic to become enlightened  So Leo is very logical, so logical that he knows where logic's limits are, which Athene apparantly doesn't.

But regarding self-development -- and not enlightenment --... like understanding projection, emotions, where they come from, etc.. basically understaind simple cause-and-effect (=logic) is a powerful tool to understand your self on a conceptual level. It can't go deep enough to truly find your true self, but still, logic has its uses.

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1 hour ago, NTOgen said:

Sooner or later the absence of real choice gets in your face more and more no matter what you believe, whether you like it or not. It makes for a poor excuse but a perfectly valid observation. Delusion about this works both ways.

About choice: The more mindful you are of your ego and how it functions, the higher level of awareness you possess, the higher degree of previous subconsciouss programming that you have become conscious of, the more you are in control, and the more you do have a real choice. 

If your awareness is low, if you arent mindful, if you haven't studied yourself, if you haven't become conscious of any subconscious programming at all..., yes then the degree of 'real choice' is low.
 

Yes, absolute "real choice" does not exist. But you can approximate it, that's for sure  It's a balance. Yes, you have to embrace that you ultimately have no real choice, but at the same time, you have to approximate real choice... Hehe,   ... This is two opposing thoughts:

- Realize you ultimately have no real choice.
- Realize that you can approximate real choice.

Yet, both of them are true. The same with the "I am nothing"- and "I am everything"-feelings. ... If you only follow the "I have no real choice", and forget the opposing statement ... then you will become delusional, obviously, and you cannot reach true nondual enlightenment.  

----

"And frankly, if you've had enough of the bullshit and the suffering, all those carefully weighed and nuanced nice-to-have ideals of yours, of a properly brandished badge of enlightenment, will go straight out the window, and anyone who insists on standing in your way will do so at their peril."

I really cannot follow your perspective NTO. Or I mean, I can see what you mean, but I just can't follow it.. It doesn't align with my nature.
For me, enlightenment should be done with love.

If you've had enough of the suffering, then start loving yourself. That should be the first step to proper enlightenment.

 

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

35 minutes ago, Debbie B said:

Well, I am new to this forum and new to this whole concept of ...not sure how to describe it...lets say 'Truth'.  I find it is easy to accept we are part of one.  What I fail to understand is, why it is something worth attaining?  It is already.  I am just confused about most of these discussions.  I am sure I must be missing something.....

You have to become aware of the difference between:

- Understanding "I am nothing/I am everything/We are all one/etc" conceptually and logically.

- Feeling it in your 'heart'.

Understanding enlightenment through language is fine, but it's just 1% of the path.

To become enlightened, you have to BECOME one with the Truth... not just understand it through language.... cos ultimately, the Truth cannot be put into language... It has to be directly experienced... And that ain't so easy  
And even... Directly experiencing Truth, through a breakthrough dose of 5-meo for example, that is often not enough to give you constant enlightenment.. You saw the Truth in the 5-meo experience, but it most of the time does not stick, and the "I exist as this person"-feeling comes back quickly... .. The "I exist as this person"-feeling is EXTREMELY hard to get rid of for more than just momentarily awakening-episodes... However, sometimes, you are "ready" for it, and when a very deep awakening-experience hits you, it transforms you, and you are enlightened. Most of the time, it takes work to get "ready". Work = meditation, self-inquiry, reading about it, understanding it deeply through language, being aware of your actions, thoughts, emotions, etc during live, etc etc etc

Edited December 21, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't think you guys appreciate the degree of depth of insight possible.

However amazing you might think your first enlightenment is, I'd bet good money that it can go 1000x deeper.

Consider, your current position is one of assuming you know better than a master with 40 years experience who has innate, near-superhuman spiritual capacities compared to you, and 20,000-40,000 hours of practice in contemplation.

You will never know how deep you didn't go. And no one will ever be able to tell you.

Is that a chance you wanna take?

To do what instead? Eat Cheetos while watching TV?

If one can always go deeper, why even dive? Doesn't this become ego war for who will dive deeper? Also if there are no separate I's between which two entities are we comparing whether one is deeper than the other?

Is this diving deep notion designed for those of us still stuck in ego? If all is one, in the end the deep and the shallow have played equal importance to all this - no importance at all, since truth never changes (I've been told)

[ajasatya]

Quote

Well, I am new to this forum and new to this whole concept of ...not sure how to describe it...lets say 'Truth'.  I find it is easy to accept we are part of one.  What I fail to understand is, why it is something worth attaining?  It is already.  I am just confused about most of these discussions.  I am sure I must be missing something.....

@Debbie B your question is one of the biggies. the zen master dogen spent a lot of time trying to clarify it himself, so i'm going to attach a great book with the core of his teachings. the very first chapter should help you to answer your own question.

it's not about understanding things conceptually, intellectually. it's not about accepting nor attaining. it's about embodying Truth and staking your life upon it. every thought, word and gesture. it's about becoming a true master. a true master of yourself.

Shobogenzo.pdf

edit: also, @Leo Gura, i think you may enjoy this book on this new phase of yours.

Edited December 21, 2016 by ajasatya

[WaveInTheOcean]

47 minutes ago, Dodoster said:

If one can always go deeper, why even dive? Doesn't this become ego war for who will dive deeper? Also if there are no separate I's between which two entities are we comparing whether one is deeper than the other?

Well you are a finite part of the infinite mind ('infinite mind' = pure infinite empty consciousness aka God).

Leo is another finite part. Or Leo is an EGO with a part of infinite consciousness experiencing that ego. You are another part.

Of course you can compare how deep a finite part has delved into the infinite ocean in terms of understanding reality(=the ocean).

There are no separate "I's" though, no separate "owners" or "controllers". But there are separate finite minds -- obviously. The "no-thing" that experiences each finite mind is the infinite mind. The feeling that you are an "individual experiencer" experiencing this life of yours ... now that's the ego-illusion we're always talking about. There is no individual experiencer.. there is only experience within consciousness. When you go and make a sandwhich, and the thought comes up "Mhm, what a nice sandwhich _I_ just made".. that's the illusion right there.. There was none who made the sandwhich. There was only the experience of "making a sandwhich".. no one did it. You could say God did it, but the "you" didn't do it, because "you" don't exist.

If we speak in terms of langauge, there are no subjects. There are only verbs. Only doings. There are no do'er except God, if you really want one.

The creation of "subjects" / nouns is a man-made thing (but though, also a God-made thing hehe)... it's a tool to function in the world... Use the tool (mind) wisely. hehe.

The mind/ego stores "happenings"/doings as memories and instantly creates a story in your head that says "I did this" or "this happened to me".
And that is the illusion right there... If we could remove the memory of "you making a sandwhich"... then you wouldn't know that you have created the sandwhich... There is only the present moment. And in the present moment there are a lot of "happenings". But there isn't anyone who "do" the "happenings". .. Yet the present moment for each of us often includes the internal experience of being an "I" that did something in the past... Now how do we get rid of this internal experience?   First.. one probably has to see, that it's just a thought/internal experience, and has nothing to with the actual reality... And then we can work from there.

But who is the "one" that has to see this? LOL. It's a paradox right... Who IS it that can SEE that this "I did this"-feeling is just a thought? ... It's sort of the mind/ego itself that has to realize it doesn't really exist... it has to realize "hey, this is just an experience, and I am not that" ... Or we could split you up into 3 parts:

x: ego (conceptual illusion created through internal language/thoughts... an experience happening in consciousness)

z: The finite part of infinite consciousness (Pure being / "soul" / the True Higher Self/You that is capable of being aware of the ego and see it as an experience)

y: Pure infinite empty consciousness (God)

Now, you are not an ego.

If you believe you are x ( a person/ego ) then you believing in a hallucination, and labeling this hallucination as "Truth". ... This leads to suffering at some point or another... obviously... Because this hallucination can easily be hurt by other egos.

Are you y? Well... No you are not God for christ sake (:D). But you can find this "y" (God) inside you. But it's not really you, yet it is what you are part of, it's the essential part of you that makes it possible for you to exist, it's the "proces" that has created you. 

So you are basically "z" which is created out of y. 

z is the link between x and y. If there were no z, there would be no x or y. ... z is what creates the ultimate duality.. the duality of "finite" and "infinite". You are this z... It's not a thing.. It's more like "Pure being"... A "spirit of God" so to speak.

"z" is the "individual" awareness that you are... Its the thing that is aware of ego.. Now, it's very important to differentiate between x and z... .. Z is eternal BECAUSE it has the same properties as y EXCEPT it's FINITE.

x is an experience happening inside of Z, and Z is a part of Y.

You can't KILL "z" because it's eternal.

You CAN kill "x"  because it didn't live to begin with.

But x will always be there during normal life anyway. .. Because it's x that is the:

- talking
- emotions
- thoughts

Etc.... You become enlightened if you as an ego, identify yourself deeply as z (and not as X), and thus you become in direct contact with y (the divine/God).

So basically when all the emotions and thoughts instead of telling "z" that it's "x", begin "to tell" "z" that it's "z" (and thus a "product" of y, then you are enlightened :-) 

So for most people, "x" (which is just happenings/experiences) tells "z" that it's "x". 
For the enlightened persons, "x" (which is just a happenings/expereinces) tells "z" that it's "z".

But it's all "God"'s doings of course,... It's full circle of course. So:

Average dude:
y makes "x" tell z that it's "x"

Enlightened dude:
y makes "x" tell z that it's z.

Free will is an illusion of course ...

It's all done by God's/y's doings. So reality/God/Absolute Infinity plays a game with itself where it tells itself (all the z's) that it's "x" ... It tells itself a lie... It takes on a mask and acts... plays a silly little game with itself ...

Yet sometimes, Absolute Infinity wants to see itself (through z of course), so it makes it tell itself (all the z's) that it is actually z (and thus ultimately y).

Why do Absolute Infinity do all this? Well, you guessed it.. it's infinite, so it does ALL kinds of wierd mystical stuff. The fact that you exist is one big mystery... all we can say is that God is infinite... and remember, infinite beyond time and space.

I have to get to work, I could sit and talk about this for years.
:D:D

Edited December 21, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Debbie B]

@ajasatya  Thank you for the book...   

[Dodo]

1 hour ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

Well you are a finite part of the infinite mind ('infinite mind' = pure infinite empty consciousness aka God).

Leo is another finite part. Or Leo is an EGO with a part of infinite consciousness experiencing that ego. You are another part.

Of course you can compare how deep a finite part has delved into the infinite ocean in terms of understanding reality(=the ocean).

There are no separate "I's" though, no separate "owners" or "controllers". But there are separate finite minds -- obviously. The "no-thing" that experiences each finite mind is the infinite mind. The feeling that you are an "individual experiencer" experiencing this life of yours ... now that's the ego-illusion we're always talking about. There is no individual experiencer.. there is only experience within consciousness. When you go and make a sandwhich, and the thought comes up "Mhm, what a nice sandwhich _I_ just made".. that's the illusion right there.. There was none who made the sandwhich. There was only the experience of "making a sandwhich".. no one did it. You could say God did it, but the "you" didn't do it, because "you" don't exist.

If we speak in terms of langauge, there are no subjects. There are only verbs. Only doings. There are no do'er except God, if you really want one.

The creation of "subjects" / nouns is a man-made thing (but though, also a God-made thing hehe)... it's a tool to function in the world... Use the tool (mind) wisely. hehe.

The mind/ego stores "happenings"/doings as memories and instantly creates a story in your head that says "I did this" or "this happened to me".
And that is the illusion right there... If we could remove the memory of "you making a sandwhich"... then you wouldn't know that you have created the sandwhich... There is only the present moment. And in the present moment there are a lot of "happenings". But there isn't anyone who "do" the "happenings". .. Yet the present moment for each of us often includes the internal experience of being an "I" that did something in the past... Now how do we get rid of this internal experience?   First.. one probably has to see, that it's just a thought/internal experience, and has nothing to with the actual reality... And then we can work from there.

But who is the "one" that has to see this? LOL. It's a paradox right... Who IS it that can SEE that this "I did this"-feeling is just a thought? ... It's sort of the mind/ego itself that has to realize it doesn't really exist... it has to realize "hey, this is just an experience, and I am not that" ... Or we could split you up into 3 parts:

x: ego (conceptual illusion created through internal language/thoughts... an experience happening in consciousness)

z: The finite part of infinite consciousness (Pure being / "soul" / the True Higher Self/You that is capable of being aware of the ego and see it as an experience)

y: Pure infinite empty consciousness (God)

Now, you are not an ego.

If you believe you are x ( a person/ego ) then you believing in a hallucination, and labeling this hallucination as "Truth". ... This leads to suffering at some point or another... obviously... Because this hallucination can easily be hurt by other egos.

Are you y? Well... No you are not God for christ sake (:D). But you can find this "y" (God) inside you. But it's not really you, yet it is what you are part of, it's the essential part of you that makes it possible for you to exist, it's the "proces" that has created you. 

So you are basically "z" which is created out of y. 

z is the link between x and y. If there were no z, there would be no x or y. ... z is what creates the ultimate duality.. the duality of "finite" and "infinite". You are this z... It's not a thing.. It's more like "Pure being"... A "spirit of God" so to speak.

"z" is the "individual" awareness that you are... Its the thing that is aware of ego.. Now, it's very important to differentiate between x and z... .. Z is eternal BECAUSE it has the same properties as y EXCEPT it's FINITE.

x is an experience happening inside of Z, and Z is a part of Y.

You can't KILL "z" because it's eternal.

You CAN kill "x"  because it didn't live to begin with.

But x will always be there during normal life anyway. .. Because it's x that is the:

- talking
- emotions
- thoughts

Etc.... You become enlightened if you as an ego, identify yourself deeply as z (and not as X), and thus you become in direct contact with y (the divine/God).

So basically when all the emotions and thoughts instead of telling "z" that it's "x", begin "to tell" "z" that it's "z" (and thus a "product" of y, then you are enlightened :-) 

So for most people, "x" (which is just happenings/experiences) tells "z" that it's "x". 
For the enlightened persons, "x" (which is just a happenings/expereinces) tells "z" that it's "z".

But it's all "God"'s doings of course,... It's full circle of course. So:

Average dude:
y makes "x" tell z that it's "x"

Enlightened dude:
y makes "x" tell z that it's z.

Free will is an illusion of course ...

It's all done by God's/y's doings. So reality/God/Absolute Infinity plays a game with itself where it tells itself (all the z's) that it's "x" ... It tells itself a lie... It takes on a mask and acts... plays a silly little game with itself ...

Yet sometimes, Absolute Infinity wants to see itself (through z of course), so it makes it tell itself (all the z's) that it is actually z (and thus ultimately y).

Why do Absolute Infinity do all this? Well, you guessed it.. it's infinite, so it does ALL kinds of wierd mystical stuff. The fact that you exist is one big mystery... all we can say is that God is infinite... and remember, infinite beyond time and space.

I have to get to work, I could sit and talk about this for years.
:D:D

How can you know this is the truth with such certainty: what if this is your minds way to think itself into continuing to feed itself even after your realisation that it is an illusion that you are the mind. An illusion that you can add something to yourself and an illusion that you are diving deep?

Many people including me, think or have thought they #knowthetruth, but wasnt the first thing we had to admit in this journey that the mind will never know. We can only speculate and experience, but one thing i know for sure is i have to detach and let go. 

This deep diving sounds to me like the opposite of letting go, you just change the thing you hold on to to something different. How can there be x,y,z if there's only y?

Isnt x's(ego's) biggest dream to be the z(immortal being, spirit ), which is still just illusion on another scale? Ego on a spiritual level, still allowing for Other and war. 

Isnt the eternal z still only an infinite river flowing into the absolute infinity, which Leo talked about. Isn't that half-way enlightenment? An enlightenment devil?

In other words, if you trully have no ego and realised all is one, shouldn't you be fine with being shallow as much as being deep - since there is nowhere further to go? Enlightenment has levels now?

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by Dodoster

[hundreth]

1 minute ago, Maorice said:

No, he is not. Look up what the term "zen devil" means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo

It means people who confuse other mystical experiences with enlightenment. This can of course include psychedelic experiences like the ones on 5-meo-dmt.

Very interesting point!

Quote

The term makyo (魔境 makyō?) is a Zen term that means “ghost cave” or “devil’s cave.” It is a figurative reference to the kind of self-delusion that results from clinging to an experience and making a conceptual “nest” out of it for oneself. Makyo is essentially synonymous with illusion, but especially in reference to experiences that can occur within meditation practice.

We often hear critiques of rationality alongside phrases like "Experience is KING"

But really, the following is more apt: "Experience is the mind's BITCH"

While experience itself is unlimited, it is always being interpreted and filtered through the mind. Consider each time you recall a memory, you rebuild it. There's a reason why eye witness testimony is considered one of the least reliable sources of truth.

We are also subject to tons and tons of confirmation bias. Why do millions believe in simplistic newspaper astrology horoscopes? They will argue that they directly FEEL these horoscopes and astrological charts are correct. Confirmation bias can also kick in when meditating, or experiencing an altered state of consciousness brought on by an entheogen. Your mind is wired to look for patterns. If you expect to experience something, chances are you will "experience it." 

A healthy balance of critical thinking and open mindedness is key.

[hundreth]

16 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

You should take advantage of it. If the mind is wired that way, you'd think there was good reason for it. Life is nothing if not pattern, and this goes far beyond what can be explained away by confirmation bias.

There is a good reason for it. Survival.

Early survival depended on our ability to see patterns in randomness and to make snap judgments.  Rational thought is slow and arduous. It's unable to provide our ancestors with the survival advantages that emotional and rapid cognitions do.  As such, our brains have been programmed by evolution to make all kinds of rapid cognitions, that in this modern time, are simply prone to error. 

In other words, if you come in contact with a tiger in the wild you don't have time to rationally examine whether it's a threat or a friend. Your brain will find a pattern, wild animal = scary. Get away.  

Note: there is no problem with looking for patterns, as long as you aren't biased towards confirming those patterns. Patterns are not the problem.

This bias is okay for survival purposes, but you don't want bias anywhere near the pursuit of truth.

[hundreth]

19 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

You say it like you were there. If you're here talking about how consciousness and truth go hand in hand, then you might consider that there is more to existence than chaos and survival.

Consciousness and pattern go hand in hand too. Reality is not this blind mechanical thing that you read about in school books. It wasn't in "early survival" times and it's not in modern times. It's still the same reality.

Hm, I don't remember saying all of existence is simply chaos and survival, or that reality is a "blind mechanical thing."

I guess you know best about what I believe though.

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Sure you'll want to account for bias and you'll want to avoid seeing things that aren't there.

That's all I'm saying. Account for the inherent bias our mind interprets experience with.

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But that doesn't mean it's necessarily the enemy. And I don't just mean that it was useful for survival. Rapid cognitions as you call them are not inferior to reason, they are much more fundamental than reason and they are still valid today, and this means a lot more than what you're assuming here about their original function.

It's an integral part of the design of the organism, and the organism is an integral part of the design of reality. If you take note of how and when certain things stand out in your attention, or how and when your attention is drawn to certain things, all of which is influenced by all kinds of biases, then you can actually learn a lot about reality and how it interacts with you. Which it does, constantly.

This is the basis of a completely different mode of functioning and navigating in life. Rational thought can be a great companion to it, but not if it operates on the assumption of a blind, chaotic, mechanical, hostile reality. Then it only gets in the way of it. And believe it or not, but that also means it gets in the way of your own growth. Simply because that's not what reality is. So if you value the pursuit of truth then you will want to take that into account.

Once again you're projecting on top of what I've written and arguing against points I've never made. Take it easy homie. 

I don't subscribe to a "blind, chaotic, mechanical, hostile reality." The purpose of my post was to highlight the limits of pure experience and empiricism. I acknowledge the limits of rational thought, but direct experience also has limitations. When I see the balance shift too far into the "rational thought is bad! experience is king!" I start to feel like it's time for me to offer my own perspective.

It's a deep topic, and I think I'm going to create a thread dedicated to epistemology, materialism, empiricism, subjective idealism, transcendental idealism and how they relate to Eastern spiritual philosophies. I'm exploring these topics as part of my own journey and it's really interesting stuff. Hopefully we can continue this discussion there. 

Edited December 22, 2016 by hundreth

[Ramu]

@WaveInTheOcean but you are Nothing.  Out of Nothing is Everything.  That's it.  Conversation over.  When you Get It.  That's It.  I am Source.  As Alan Watts once quoted, when You Get The Message hang up the phone.