Is A So-called 'enlightened Devil' Really Enlightened?

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, Maorice said:

No, he is not. Look up what the term "zen devil" means: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makyo

It means people who confuse other mystical experiences with enlightenment. This can of course include psychedelic experiences like the ones on 5-meo-dmt.

It also includes those who confuse their first enlightenment as the end of the road.

And those who behave like cocky fools after enlightenment, thinking they've figured everything out.

And those who use enlightenment to bash duality, not realizing that nonduality includes duality.

One's behaviors speaks louder than one's enlightenments.

[WaveInTheOcean]

9 hours ago, Dodoster said:

How can you know this is the truth with such certainty: what if this is your minds way to think itself into continuing to feed itself even after your realisation that it is an illusion that you are the mind. An illusion that you can add something to yourself and an illusion that you are diving deep?

Many people including me, think or have thought they #knowthetruth, but wasnt the first thing we had to admit in this journey that the mind will never know. We can only speculate and experience, but one thing i know for sure is i have to detach and let go. 

This deep diving sounds to me like the opposite of letting go, you just change the thing you hold on to to something different. How can there be x,y,z if there's only y?

Isnt x's(ego's) biggest dream to be the z(immortal being, spirit ), which is still just illusion on another scale? Ego on a spiritual level, still allowing for Other and war. 

Isnt the eternal z still only an infinite river flowing into the absolute infinity, which Leo talked about. Isn't that half-way enlightenment? An enlightenment devil?

In other words, if you trully have no ego and realised all is one, shouldn't you be fine with being shallow as much as being deep - since there is nowhere further to go? Enlightenment has levels now?

 

I'm not claiming that anything I wrote is "Truth"... In fact I THINK I wrote, that Truth can only by experienced, not communicated.

So this is just my humble description of Truth... _ a description_ . Descriptions is concepts and logic. Yet, within rationalism and concepts, I would say my above description is accurate. If you have any valid arguments of why I might be wrong, feel free to point it out.

The mind cannot "know" stuff. The mind is "simply" a brain that produces and processes internal software (thoughts, emotions, vision, sound, sense of feeling, smell and so on) -- which btw depend on the external "programming" . I include vision and sound because it' light and soundwaves being processed by hardware to produce software.. the software is then video and sound you see and hear. The "you" that experiences all this is not software itself. It's simply NOT A THING. We can call it consciousness or apeshit, both are equally true. Yet consciousness sounds "better" lol.

That's why we say you are nothingness. Self-aware nothingness is the basic fundamental nature of reality.

", but one thing i know for sure is i have to detach and let go" ... Yes, just don't become too attached to the idea that you should detach from everything, hehe. There are a infinite number of traps in this journey. Forget all concepts. If you realize you are nothing, then naturally, you cannot attach anything, but you cannot detach from anything either! Attachment and detachment -- bvadr,, FORGET the concepts and go for direct experience.

"you just change the thing you hold on to to something different."

You hurt me here. lol. You are probably right though ... However, I enjoy contemplating this stuff and discussing it  But you are right, I should be careful I don't get too attached to any idea my mind produce. ... I would say, though, that I'm in general conscious of the fact that everything we discuss here is merely concepts and can't lead to Truth in itself.

"How can there be x,y,z if there's only y?"

x isn't anywhere, and wasn't anywhere to begin with. 

"x" as ego is just a stream of apparantly random thoughts and emotions that is happening. Yet, the random stream of thoughts and emotions are what makes up your personality. It's your persona. But IT'S NOT YOU. What you are, is just the experiencer of all this stuff. But it's even wrong to call it an experiencer, because you aren't a noun or a thing... You are more like an eternal proces of reality that is all experience, that knows all experience, and that creates all experience.

Yet, you are right, there is only y, but because y is infinite beyond time and space, to realize that it is infinite, it has to create the counterpart: finiteness. And you are a finite part of that infiniteness. As an analogy imagine a little boy with very high creativity sits down and wants to draw a picture with his pencil. 

Before he begins, the white paper is absolutely blank. It's nothing.. It's just paper.

Now the paper = infinite consciousness = you

When the boy begins to draw he sort of makes a finite picture out of an infinite number of pictures he could have drawed.

I think that's the best language-made explanation of true infinity... Right before one begins to draw a picture on a blank paper, there are an INFINITE number of possible pictures that can be drawn. As SOON as you start to draw, you transform the infinite to a finite picture.

Anyway, if you see yourself as the paper being drawn on... Can you see what the problem is if you, as the white paper, begins to identify yourself as what's drawn on you? What if the boy draws something ugly and bad? You would cry... However, if you realize you are not whats drawn on the paper, but that you are the paper itself, then you cannot be hurt... Unless the boy tears up the paper lol:D

Also, because something is drawn on the paper, you as the paper are able to identify yourself. If boy never drawed anything on you, you would not have anything to contrast yourself with, and thus you would not know your self.

"Isnt x's(ego's) biggest dream to be the z(immortal being, spirit ), which is still just illusion on another scale? Ego on a spiritual level, still allowing for Other and war. "
 

x cannot dream anything nor have any dream.

x is not a thing. x is an experience... a stream of emotions and thoughts. x may give you these streams of emotions and thoughts in a nice package labeled "DREAM". It may even, if it's REALLY naughty be labeled "I HAVE A DREAM" ... If the package is only labeled "DREAM" we got an enlightened dude right there. Must be extraordinary to have a stream of emotions and thoughts without the "I AM/I HAVE/ I XXX"-part labeled on it but only "dream", "hungry", "thirsty", "funny"-packages.

My point is, nothing has any dream. You see what I did here? It's nothing that has any dream. ITS Z THAT HAS THE DREAM CMON MATE!!

The difference just lies if the dream has attached an "I"-feeling to it or not. If the dream has attached an "I"-feeling to it, then z cannot see that it's z, but identifies instead as the "I" (the x that doesn't exist). If the dream has no "I"-feeling attached to it, but is just a happening..., then z can see that it's z, because there are no dirty little tricks being played anymore and becaise the dream is still an experience, which has to be experienced, and if there is no "I" from the ego saying it's experiencing anything, but the experience STILL _HAPPENS_ then my gentlemen,, the z is free to see that there are only happenings, and that it is the nothingness-"perciever" percieving all the happenings.

You call "z" an "immortal being, spirit"... which is just a bad use of conceptual words imo... Better call "z" NOTHING. EMPTY AWARENESS.  That's more accurate, even though no words and do your true self full justice.

 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, NTOgen said:

@Leo Gura What you're talking about as "an enlightenment" or "enlightenments" or whatever, as something that visits you repeatedly until it eventually "sticks" in more and more difficult situations... I would suggest that is also Makyo.

Enlightenment is not that, and for the life of me I can't understand why you keep saying it that way, it makes no sense to me at all even as a "linguistic device".

No, makyo is makyo.

An enlightenment insight is an enlightenment insight. And it comes in many facets and depths.

You're not studying this topic nearly deeply enough. You've just skimmed the surface.

If spirituality was as simple as you think it is, mystical traditions wouldn't be as diverse and complex as they are. This is just basic common sense. If you bother to do the research, you will start to see that your conceptual understanding of spirituality is riddled with holes and doesn't account for the facts we see on the ground.

Feel free to do it your way. Let's see which one of us develops the deepest understanding and embodiment. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.

[Travis]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

Truth is not a spiritual pursuit, Leo. Truth is just Truth. 

Maya is nearly infinite, as the guy you don't like so much, says. 

 

[Leo Gura]

@Travis Truth doesn't matter.

[Travis]

Give up trying. Give up striving. Give up the goal of desiring to be somewhere in the future.

What arises when I say to give up goals for the future? 

 

[Travis]

@Leo Gura

What are you trying to achieve, specifically? If you're trying to map dreamland, that's one thing. But if not, what is it?

Edited December 22, 2016 by Travis

[Debbie B]

I went to Nepal 9-10 years ago, only for a month, a friend of mine has a Charity over there.  This is what I observed.  The humility of the people, the kindness, self effacing .... a Rat was running between shops trying to get in a shop doorway, calmly a shop owner picked a piece of board up, put it across the doorway to prevent the Rats entrance, while still holding conversation.   We got washed out (monsoon) and the cooks travelling with us opted to walk to the next place, 10-15 miles of incredibly rough terrain, they arrived only an hour after us.  1 of the cooks walked through jungle/ravines, 30 miles for a few days work.  I got up one morning to go to toliet ( outside, built for us) to find about 10+ Children waiting, I gave each one a squirt of shower gel, amid much excitement and noise and showed them I wash my hands with it, a joyous moment, it was beautiful, and then berated myself...they have no need for this.  Walking a few miles to the standpipe, joining the queue ( to wash my hair) and the Women refused to collect their water, until I had used it and they wouldn't accept any argument.  They wouldn't let me carry anything back for them. Some of the Children walked miles to school, ravines and jungle with joy.  It is an honour to receive schooling.

This is the starting place, from where the children are picked, to become Buddhist Monks. 

We are all, a million miles away from a 4 year old initiate.

[Leo Gura]

Chop wood, eat Cheetos

[Aware]

Quote

Is A So-called 'enlightened Devil' Really Enlightened?

Attachment = Devil.
Ask illusion to be real.

Awareness = All pervasiveness.

Let me ask again: Illusion, be real.

Awareness, be Awareness.

Nothing happens, just silence.

[Dodo]

"Anyway, if you see yourself as the paper being drawn on... Can you see what the problem is if you, as the white paper, begins to identify yourself as what's drawn on you? What if the boy draws something ugly and bad? You would cry... However, if you realize you are not whats drawn on the paper, but that you are the paper itself, then you cannot be hurt... Unless the boy tears up the paper lol:D"

Wow,  i actually most this life had in the back of my mind this idea that i drew my life as an angel-like entity, actually guided by my guardian angel. Everyone in turn would get sat and draw on a magic sheet that will transform what you draw into infinity, but with the taste if what was drawn. 

So i think I've drawn my life in a way, but i didnt identify with the paper nor the drawn, but with the one that was doing the changes in the drawing! woo deep shit

Edited December 22, 2016 by Dodoster

[WaveInTheOcean]

4 hours ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

Searching for enlightenment on here definitely won't help you if you really want the truth. This forum is mostly for mental masturbation

I both agree and disagree.

I agree that this forum is largely for mental masturbation ... which I probably am also participating in!

Yet I still think this forum has it uses.

Just a few them:

- sharing of resources
- newbies who seek can get guidance on how to "get on the path"
- I have written a lot of shit in this thread... By writing it all, I sort of understand my self better. You know? Before I wrote it all it was just vague ideas in my head, yet, when I write them down on paper like I do here, I can get a better picture of it all. 
- Concepts, logic, rationalism still has its uses on the path imo. It is the mind that has to surrender, after all, and it helps if the mind has a vague idea of what Truth might be and how it might get there (i.e. "HOW DO I SURRENDER?")

 I do fully agree, though, that to really find the Truth, one has to stop all the masturbation and go do the "practical" work needed.

Edited December 22, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

6 hours ago, Dodoster said:

"Anyway, if you see yourself as the paper being drawn on... Can you see what the problem is if you, as the white paper, begins to identify yourself as what's drawn on you? What if the boy draws something ugly and bad? You would cry... However, if you realize you are not whats drawn on the paper, but that you are the paper itself, then you cannot be hurt... Unless the boy tears up the paper lol:D"

Wow,  i actually most this life had in the back of my mind this idea that i drew my life as an angel-like entity, actually guided by my guardian angel. Everyone in turn would get sat and draw on a magic sheet that will transform what you draw into infinity, but with the taste if what was drawn. 

So i think I've drawn my life in a way, but i didnt identify with the paper nor the drawn, but with the one that was doing the changes in the drawing! woo deep shit

It's all about perspective.

In the "boy draws on a blank paper"-analogy, to me,

- the boy/the boy's hand/the pencil = God (y)
- blank paper = True Self (z)
- whats drawn on paper = experience/happenings/ego/mind/body (x)

- The blank paper is eternal (was never born, will never die) & it's conscious of whats drawn upon it.
- The blank paper is infinite in size & in its "ground-state" it's just completely blank and empty (nothingness).
- The pencil that's drawing can switch randomly between infinite colours and infinite types of pencils and it also has an ereaser on it's back that it often uses.
- The pencil can draw an infinite different pictures upon you.

- Whats drawn on paper is real enough, but only momentarily real. If you cling to whats drawn, you will constantly switch between happiness (when something good is drawn) and sufferiing (when the drawn disappears again).

- If you realize that what's drawn is NOT you, but just experience/happenings, and that you are the no-thing/blankness that experiences all that, then you become enlightened.

- Makyo is when there is drawn something you percieve as 'extraordinary'/true and you then cling to it as Truth.

- A True Complete Enlightenment Experience is when you become fully aware of what's going on: ... Your perspective/awareness sort of raises above the paper, and you directly see the pencil drawing on the blank, eternal you... You meet God.

- A Real (with a capital R) Awakening happens when the pencil -- for whatever reason -- momentarily, completely halts all the drawing while also erasing the earlier drawn (mind/memories) completely. What is then left is just the blank paper: nothingness (True Self). No experience. It's not an experience. That's enlightenment. The mind is COMPLETELY killed. NOTHING is left. There is only YOU (nothingness) left... discovering your self (but ITS NOT AN EXPERIENCE, because you are a no-thing, and a no-thing can't be experienced).
This is litteraly equal to physical DEATH. The only difference is that -- for some reason -- it's possibly to keep the body alive while the paper is completely blank... It's sort of a paradox, right, because the body is something that's drawn on the paper...

What when you go to deep sleep? Isn't this equal to what I just described? Sounds like it... the difference may lie in that when you go to deep sleep, "the pencil is being handled in such a way" that the mind doesn't remember itself shutting down.. it happens gently and unconsciously...

A real awakening, here you see the mind/ego getting annihilated right in front of You , and then momentarily there's nothing left but You, and then some "time afterwards", the ego comes back, and You see it coming back.., like You get pushed back into a skull from the nothingness...

When going to deep sleep and waking up, it's all happening in such a way that the mind is programmed to not store (remember) the experience of it being killed. In a same way when "you" wake up from deep sleep, the mind is programmed to not store the experience of being resurrected from nothing. 

I'm not talking about the deep sleep/nothingness itself, because here there is only You/Silence/Nothingness, i.e. it's a no-experience because the mind produces zero experience --  the paper is blank -- simply because the mind is death.

I'm simply talking about the very few seconds BEFORE the death of the mind (the killing), and the very few seconds AFTER the resurrection of the mind. 

No one remember falling asleep. Yes, we remember when we went to lie down on the bed. But we never remember any experience of actually falling into deep sleep (= the mind being killed). 

This, I postulate, is "simply" because the brain/mind is wired in such a way to not store such an experience.
If the mind, on the other hand, WAS wired/programmed to store such an experience, then everyone would be enlightened, lol, because everyone would see their egoes/minds getting completely killed, and thus everyone would directly be able to see for Themselves that They are not the body nor the mind/ego.

Everyone would be scared shitless, lol. Very few would dare to go to sleep -- because it would feel like getting actually killed.

And from an evolutionary perspective it's extremely "bad" for an "organism" to realize its True Self is not the body (for very obvious reasons), so OF COURSE the brain/mind is wired to not remember falling asleep.

Same goes for waking up from deep sleep.
Everyone has tried to be waken by someting/someone while you were in a very, very deep, deep sleep.
When that happens, you are always very, very confused in the seconds after waking up. 
I think this is because the mind/brain is wired in such a way to not remember the experience of being resurrected from nothingness.

Also if your body dies/you commit suicide... Then... there is no mind left to integrate/remember "the experience" ("the experience" = the 'right before' and the 'right after' the 'no-experience'/ego-death.
And thus, physical death has nothing to do with enlightenment, just like going to deep sleep has nothing to do with enlightenment.

Enligthenment is sort of a paradox, because enligtenment, yes, is the DEATH of the MIND. But at the same time, enligtenment requires the mind/brain/person to be FULLY 'alive/awake/aware' to actually remember the experience of both the killing and the resurrection of the mind . It's the memories of such two 'happenings' that produces an enlightened person. The space between the two happenings (i.e the killing and the ressurection) is the no-experience/nothingness which the mind itself can't remember because it wasn't there. But the process of the killing and the process of the resurrection; this the mind 'can' store and remember as a memory. And when the mind remember these two happenings, the mind can now see that it doesn't really exist, and it starts producing thoughts and emotions without the "I" labeled on to them.

So an enlightenment experience could basically be described as:

- going to deep sleep, while being fully aware of going to the deep sleep (i.e. the mind rembering the experience of going to deep sleep, i.e. the mind remebering the experience of itself being annihilated into nothingness).

- then shorty after waking up from deep sleep, while being fully aware of waking up from deep sleep (i.e. the mind remembering the experience of itself waking up from deep sleep, i.e. the mind remembering the experience of itself being reborn from nothingness).

In both cases, of course, "You" (z) is always there, You can't be modified. You are just there.
You experience the memories the mind produces for You.
So after all... Enlightenment is sort of a paradox because it's:

- on one hand: all about the mind (it has to be 'alive'/'be there' to store certain experiences needed for enlightenment)
- on another hand: not about the mind at all (it has to be killed for reaching enlightenment)

It's two opposing statements ... Yet both of them are equally true and false  
Truth with a capital T comes when the two opposing ideas come together and form a circle:
 
- the mind has to be killed (one half of the circle).  <----> So You can become  You (Nothingness).
- the mind has to be alive (other half of the circle).  <---->  So You can experience the killing of the not-you.

The True Self can only fully discover itself
by directly experiencing the killing of The False Self.

Without a False Self (ego) in the first place, there could be no True Self (nothingness) in the first place   And vice versa.
The world we all see ourselves in is dualistic.

For there to be darkness, there has to be light.
For there to be 'a day', there has to be 'a night'.
For there to be 'good', there has to be 'evil'.
For there to be a True Self, there has to be False Self.

Two opposing things are always two sides of the same coin.

So basically enligtenment is a change of what x (ego / mind) produces for You (z) to experience.

If "you" are an enlightened person, "you" are still just a person/ego/mind/brain running around -- playing the game of life.

The difference "just" lies in what this person says, does, thinks, feels . (What the mind produces for You to experience)

So achieving enligtenment is after all just achieving a special type of personality ...
But a very special, rare kind of personality, of course.

Its traits are, among other things:

- Absolute Self-Discovery.
- Unconditional Love to all of reality.
- Deep intuitive understanding of human life & how the mind/ego functions.
- Deep understanding of reality.
- No attachment to any experience, yet no detachment from any experience either.
- Passion for life -- passion for both self and others.

Cheers.

EDIT: I edited the shit out of this one. Added a lot of rambling shit.

Edited December 22, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Egoisego]

so i am inclined to say that you have a very flawed perception of this.

 

you truly see this is another thing which one need to succeed in.

 

think about this guys. what would happen if enlightenment doesnt give you this endless bliss? what if?

why do you want it to be love and enjoyable?

Edited December 22, 2016 by Egoisego

[WaveInTheOcean]

26 minutes ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

...People are just going to get lost...

Great!  
I think that's exactly the purpose  
If people don't become lost in the search for enlightenment -- then they aren't searching very effectively.  

But I sort of hear what ya' saying. Even though some confusing is good... Enlightenment should IMO still be practiced/searched for with love, understanding, care, patience ... and probably with some degree of caution!

Edited December 22, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

1 hour ago, Egoisego said:

so i am inclined to say that you have a very flawed perception of this.

 

you truly see this is another thing which one need to succeed in.

 

think about this guys. what would happen if enlightenment doesnt give you this endless bliss? what if?

why do you want it to be love and enjoyable?

I don't see it as a thing anyone needs to succeed in. Enlightenment is meaningless, pointless. Nothing matters.
My nature is very inclined to seek for Truth. I've been interested in math, physics and chemistry since I was a boy.
Naturally I want to go the whole way.

I have many friends who don't give a damn fuck about Truth and Enlightenment. 
It's fine, I take on another personality when I with them and enjoy their company and life. No problem. I don't try to force them to anything. They should do whatever they want to do. Some suffering is fine. Ultimately there's nothing wrong with suffering. MOst of the time there will be happiness in-between to contrast it anyway.

"why do you want it to be love and enjoyable?"

You see, I just told you, that you have to kill "yourself" to become enlightened. Has that anything to do with what you label as "enjoyable"? .  

"think about this guys. what would happen if enlightenment doesnt give you this endless bliss? what if?"

I couldn't care less, mate. I couldn't care less about enlightenment to be honest. All I want is Truth, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE!   I don't know what it is. I only have ideas... And I try to be conscious enough to not attach to any of my ideas, which is hard, but doable. The mind constantly produces thoughts, ideas and emotions. That is its fucking nature.

Have a good day.

Edited December 22, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

3 minutes ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

@WaveInTheOcean There can be a short path,  but if do it on your own you can get lost for a long time.

As a metaphor the path could take 100 days, but if you try to figure it out on your own it will take 10000 days 

As a mataphor, the opposite could - for some - be equally true. You know nothing. I know nothing.



After all I find it a bit funny that you're criticizing this forum and its purpose so much, while you are still here having a discussion with me. If you dislike this forum so much, why the heck are you still hanging around? Go away!  Unless there is still some part of you that enjoy wasting time here.  

Edited December 22, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[WaveInTheOcean]

4 minutes ago, Wormon Blatburm said:

Yeah. I come here when I have nothing better to do. I share my opinion while I'm at it

But could you elaborate your opinion a bit while you are here?

How should one, according to you, maneuver on the path? 

You said something about doing it with others, in a sort of social setting?... Could you eleborate? I'm interested on all views on this matter, and you seem to be  wiser than the average dude on this forum.

Edited December 22, 2016 by WaveInTheOcean

[Egoisego]

2 hours ago, WaveInTheOcean said:

I don't see it as a thing anyone needs to succeed in. Enlightenment is meaningless, pointless. Nothing matters.
My nature is very inclined to seek for Truth. I've been interested in math, physics and chemistry since I was a boy.
Naturally I want to go the whole way.

I have many friends who don't give a damn fuck about Truth and Enlightenment. 
It's fine, I take on another personality when I with them and enjoy their company and life. No problem. I don't try to force them to anything. They should do whatever they want to do. Some suffering is fine. Ultimately there's nothing wrong with suffering. MOst of the time there will be happiness in-between to contrast it anyway.

"why do you want it to be love and enjoyable?"

You see, I just told you, that you have to kill "yourself" to become enlightened. Has that anything to do with what you label as "enjoyable"? .  

"think about this guys. what would happen if enlightenment doesnt give you this endless bliss? what if?"

I couldn't care less, mate. I couldn't care less about enlightenment to be honest. All I want is Truth, WHATEVER THAT MIGHT BE!   I don't know what it is. I only have ideas... And I try to be conscious enough to not attach to any of my ideas, which is hard, but doable. The mind constantly produces thoughts, ideas and emotions. That is its fucking nature.

Have a good day.

can i ask you, why do you want the truth? what if there is no truth?

 

i read just another book yestereay about the latest philosophy on the area about the nature of the world. what is. 

i dont know what to take from it, well only different perspectives

[Dodo]

17 minutes ago, NTOgen said:

What you're saying is that truth is not found in perspectives.

Just like the absolute is not found in the relative.

But does that really mean there is no truth?

By definition, truth is "what is".

And surely, something is...

 

If nothing wasn't,  there wouldnt be such confusion over what is ??

Edited December 22, 2016 by Dodoster