Stage Orange vs Stage Green: Did Dave Chappelle go to far?

[Tanz]

15 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

TERF is not about dating preferences. It's about not recognizing trans rights. And no, it's not an interesting idea, not any more than homophobia is an interesting idea.

What are these rights you are talking about and how does society take them away? (I'm not being sarcastic, I'm actually interested to understand)
If my daughter is a professional fighter and someone that used to be a man is now a woman fights her, I would be opposed to it.

If there was someone who was trans for an interview and she listed herself as she, I would say her of course and I would hire her based on her abilities.  If my office had 2 bathrooms and she used the females bathroom and some female staff said she felt uncomfortable with a trans person in the bathroom then I would get a 3rd neutral bathroom.  

All this is so confusing and at any way along the process a person may feel offended for several reasons, HR, managers have to constantly communicate with everyone to cover all the corners. I would hate to run a company like Netflix because with 100,000++ employees, someone is bound to be upset at something....

I have plenty of gay friends but at one time I had none and had to learn things along the way. At one point or the other, we have to be patient and learn on either side.  

From an intellectual pursuit, I find homophobia, transphobia or any phobia interesting and I don't have any interaction with any trans person nor do I actually make an effort to look for friends at this point in my life unless it happens organically. I have 1 1/2 jobs and a family.  The odds of me meeting a trans person is so low because there just arent many of them in society.  

I'm a straight man, not aggressive and I hardly went out clubbing as a younger person. On the top of my head I probably went out bars or clubs 10 times in my life... out of those 10 times, I have gotten into 2 fights.  When you are in a room of drunk people, they tend to do stupid things which is why I stopped going to places with loud music and drunk people.  In social places like that, there is bound to be some guy with emotional issues... I can image a trans person going to places like that their odds of a confrontation can be greater because they are in a room with low conscious people... If they went to a meditation retreat the likelihood of them being discriminated is very low.  

If I can talk to a trans person that has ever been assaulted, I would probably ask them their story, when and where it happened, why etc

Edited October 23, 2021 by Tanz

[Carl-Richard]

38 minutes ago, Tanz said:

What are these rights you are talking about and how does society take them away?

The right to exist as their identity, just like you have the right to exist as a man. It's constantly ridiculed and not taken seriously.

 

44 minutes ago, Tanz said:

If my daughter is a professional fighter and someone that used to be a man is now a woman fights her, I would be opposed to it.

Combat sports use outdated ways of pairing opponents that need to be updated. The trans sports debate is very nuanced and not worth going much into here.

 

52 minutes ago, Tanz said:

If my office had 2 bathrooms and she used the females bathroom and some female staff said she felt uncomfortable with a trans person in the bathroom then I would get a 3rd neutral bathroom.  

This where we have to consider the arena of collective change: education, activitism, raising awareness. Why do people say they feel unsafe around trans people? Why do people say they feel unsafe around people of the opposite sex? It's possible to change these things.

[Tanz]

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

2 hours ago, Tanz said:

If my office had 2 bathrooms and she used the females bathroom and some female staff said she felt uncomfortable with a trans person in the bathroom then I would get a 3rd neutral bathroom.  

This where we have to consider the arena of collective change: education, activitism, raising awareness. Why do people say they feel unsafe around trans people? Why do people say they feel unsafe around people of the opposite sex? It's possible to change these things.

For the same reason, some women like to go to gyms that are only for women. These women feel insecure with themselves for whatever reason... These reasons could be they were raped or molested or just have confidence issues... People have numerous ways they feel that are sometimes out of our control. I remember there was a situation in California where I man sued a gym that only allowed women and won, rolls eyes. I think after that the gym was no longer allowed to be an all womans gym.    

Of course in the ideal world people would feel so secure with themselves that they feel comfortable with any gender in the bathroom.  Now that I think about it, there was a time when I trans person walked up to me and grabbed my bicep and squeezed it, and said handsome.  I didn't punch her in the face or gave her a dirty look, I just smiled and said thank you then walked away. I enjoyed the compliment but can you imagine if I did that to a woman?  

I think a common problem that many of us face is we think the world should just change overnight or even in our lifetime but we need to be more patient.  Here's something ironic, many African Americans that I have spoken to living overseas have often told me, they feel more racism in America than a place like Korea, Japan, Russia, Portugal, Singapore.
A possible theory I have thought of is a place like America talks about it so much that it becomes a problem... also there is an underlying issue of violence and aggression in America that many places in the world have less of.  

Edited October 23, 2021 by Tanz

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Tanz said:

A possible theory I have thought of is a place like America talks about it so much that it becomes a problem... 

White people talk about racism. Black people experience it.

[Tanz]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

White people talk about racism. Black people experience it.

Can't deny that. The major problem is how can it be fixed? Media bringing it up doesn't seem to work.

 

[Harlen Kelly]

34 minutes ago, Tanz said:

Can't deny that. The major problem is how can it be fixed? Media bringing it up doesn't seem to work.

If you have cancer, not talking about it or ignoring will not make it go away magically. You solve it by addressing it. 

[Tanz]

1 hour ago, Harlen Kelly said:

If you have cancer, not talking about it or ignoring will not make it go away magically. You solve it by addressing it. 

How should it be addressed? America has some serious solution problems.
People either hate fox or CNN, so they cant be involved with the solution. Those fools did manufacture a war.  The other day I talked with a programmer in California and he was bragging about getting a military contract where he and his buddies work on software used to blow up "bad" people.  
This is why wokeness culture isn't working because they may care about trans rights but then they don't mind killing another human being on the other side of the planet. Then you have these people going crazy about a statue being brought down yet they don't mind telling a woman what she should do with her body, then you have the left telling everyone they should vax or be excluded from society.. The media has a big part in all this craziness and there is hypocrisy on both sides.  

I'm sincerely asking for some ideas so perhaps I can learn something other than being told I don't know what I am talking about

Edited October 24, 2021 by Tanz

[DocWatts]

@Tanz

Sounds like you may be unintentionally conflating LGBTQ rights with neoliberalism. Owing to a number of structurally undemocratic elements within the American system, working within the establishment (or at least not making it see your movement as its enemy) is necessary to some degree to have any chance of actually getting policy passed. Progressives aren't the ones pushing for US military imperialism, even if they may not have the political power to prevent that from happening.

As you allude to, it's true that many (hell, probably the vast majority of) people aren't entirely consistent with their worldview, which consists of a patchwork of unquestioned assumptions and contradictory beliefs.

And it's also true that 'woke' culture has been appropriated to some degree by corporations who use it for marketing purposes because they need to adapt to changing social norms to survive.

None of that invalidates the fact that changing social norms towards inclusivity for marginalized people is a good and necessary societal development (albeit one with some growing pains).

Edited October 24, 2021 by DocWatts

[Opo]

7 hours ago, Tanz said:

How should it be addressed? 

Electing Biden was a good start. 

https://joebiden.com/blackamerica/

[Tanz]

3 hours ago, DocWatts said:

@Tanz

Sounds like you may be unintentionally conflating LGBTQ rights with neoliberalism. Owing to a number of structurally undemocratic elements within the American system, working within the establishment (or at least not making it see your movement as its enemy) is necessary to some degree to have any chance of actually getting policy passed. Progressives aren't the ones pushing for US military imperialism, even if they may not have the political power to prevent that from happening.

As you allude to, it's true that many (hell, probably the vast majority of) people aren't entirely consistent with their worldview, which consists of a patchwork of unquestioned assumptions and contradictory beliefs.

And it's also true that 'woke' culture has been appropriated to some degree by corporations who use it for marketing purposes because they need to adapt to changing social norms to survive.

None of that invalidates the fact that changing social norms towards inclusivity for marginalized people is a good and necessary societal development (albeit one with some growing pains).

Let's not make it an issue on who is worst. I actually don't like either side.

I was making a point from a real life example of a person I met that got his company a huge contract to push the agenda of certain people. I was making a point of how levels of unconsciousness on both sides exist. Ultimately in the example I made money  was the political party.

3 hours ago, Opo said:

Electing Biden was a good start. 

https://joebiden.com/blackamerica/

Obama was a great statesman and loved by many all over the world but we still got George Floyd. If you want to blame it on Trump then America is too fragile. If I was a black man in America I'd move out.

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Tanz said:

If you want to blame it on Trump then America is too fragile.

Why do you think that I'm blaming Trump?

1 hour ago, Tanz said:

If I was a black man in America I'd move out.

And if I was homeless I'd buy a house. 

[Tanz]

4 hours ago, Opo said:

Why do you think that I'm blaming Trump?

Quote

Im sorry, you werent.  What I meant to say was Biden replacing Trump isn't a move forward. Even if we had someone great at speaking and more thoughtful when sharing his thoughts. He made me feel great and many others but black men were getting shot as much as when Trump was prez.  Trans status in America was more or less the same too.

[Opo]

1 hour ago, Tanz said:

He made me feel great and many others but black men were getting shot as much as when Trump was prez. 

Getting shot is the end result of a lot of policies.

We will have to wait a bit for Biden’s policies take effect and that changes. 

1 hour ago, Tanz said:

Trans status in America was more or less the same too.

On the first day Biden put trans people in a protected category so bosses can't harass them based on their gender. 

While Trump banned trans people in army. 

[Arcangelo]

4 hours ago, Tanz said:

What I meant to say was Biden replacing Trump isn't a move forward

OMG!

 

[Tanz]

5 hours ago, Opo said:

On the first day Biden put trans people in a protected category so bosses can't harass them based on their gender. 

While Trump banned trans people in army. 

I think for the most part bosses are becoming more aware in large organizations but if you are talking about a boss or manager at a place like Target or Costco, Home Depot or any other place like that, won't matter what kind of laws are put in.  It will be a roll of the dice for someone, either their boss will be nice or complete assholes.  
I do hear complaints from my Asian friends that work in big tech of not being heard or not getting a chance for promotion.  As long as we live in a hyper capitalistic society people will just instinctively chop each other down.  The trans person that got fired from Netflix shared private data in analytics which is against their policy and also they disclosed to the public how much Dave Chapelle got paid for the special which is also a breach of their contract.  

Certainly, a trans person not being considered or fired because they are trans is absolutely wrong and there should be a law and it's really unfortunate that people even have to bring it up.  
 

5 hours ago, Opo said:

While Trump banned trans people in army. 

Thats certainly not appropriate 

But Biden also dropped a lawsuit on Yale being accused of discriminating against Asians and whites. Since there are more Asian people than there are trans people in America, one can say it impacts the country more negatively.   
https://www.forbes.com/sites/joewalsh/2021/02/03/biden-doj-drops-lawsuit-claiming-yale-discriminates-against-white-and-asian-students/?sh=257a8e5d24d2
All applications work university should never contain gender, race, sexual orientation, political affliation. Rather be blind just like lady justice.  Character, abilities, and other traits should be the only thing considered for employment

By no means am I trying to defend Trump, in fact, I'm glad he's out but it doesn't mean that I support Biden

Edited October 25, 2021 by Tanz

[Consept]

Could someone note down the most offensive lines or sentiments that Chappelle expressed that you believed to have gone too far? I feel a lot of this conversation has been a bit abstract without any specifics 

[gettoefl]

humor exposes hatred, be hyper mindful of what you are laughing at

it is a mirror ... be grateful to Dave ... he is showing you where you need work if you are going to wake up

you might say but i am just having a laugh in the privacy of my home ... no you are carrying bigotry in your heart and unconsciously contaminating the world

Edited October 25, 2021 by gettoefl

[Arcangelo]

52 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

you might say but i am just having a laugh in the privacy of my home ... no you are carrying bigotry in your heart and unconsciously contaminating the world

LOL

[Arcangelo]

2 hours ago, Consept said:

Could someone note down the most offensive lines or sentiments that Chappelle expressed that you believed to have gone too far? I feel a lot of this conversation has been a bit abstract without any specifics 

He says that the g's and L's think that the b's are gross

''....My problem has always been with the white people''

(audience laughs hysterically)

 

[Consept]

16 minutes ago, Arcangelo said:

He says that the g's and L's think that the b's are gross

''....My problem has always been with the white people''

(audience laughs hysterically)

 

I shouldve added to say why you think whatever lines are good or bad. But ill ask you on this one, why do you think this would be really offensive or potentially hate speech?