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Why we still keep Acting like we have Free Will?

80 posts in this topic

here is a little exercise to see if you embody free will 

scale of 1-10 how relaxed are you right now 10 being the max

scroll down

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

unless you say 10 you are in ego

10 is god

10 means you are making zero effort

10 means you are completely relaxed

if you are tense and anxious and trying to exert some will and making an effort right now, you are carrying the weight of ego

embodying god is no work whatsoever, it is your natural blissful state

relax i say to you

be you to full = beautiful

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the ability to introspect and evaluate the amount of relaxation being experienced is evidence of the existence of the will.

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There is no such thing as 'the will', there is just 'what will', and what will, will.. exactly if, and when, and how it will, and no other way. 


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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from the non-enlightened state there is such a thing as the will. 

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4 hours ago, TreyMoney said:

from the non-enlightened state there is such a thing as the will. 

Sure. It's something's propensity to be how it is.  


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, gettoefl said:

here is a little exercise to see if you embody free will 

scale of 1-10 how relaxed are you right now 10 being the max

scroll down

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

unless you say 10 you are in ego

10 is god

10 means you are making zero effort

10 means you are completely relaxed

if you are tense and anxious and trying to exert some will and making an effort right now, you are carrying the weight of ego

embodying god is no work whatsoever, it is your natural blissful state

relax i say to you

be you to full = beautiful

^^ Nice.

 

Try this out in the midst of activity, no less. I went through that phase. It was quite surreally awesome yet ordinary. Neither action nor inaction. Kind of like a full-modal animated play, complete with everything -- happening automatically, including the apparent past, the sensation of gravity (which was felt very differently from normal as if floating), and everything. Very interesting and weird at times.

In fact, it's still kind of like that. Sorta... Actually, it's almost more like being a tree or a rock or something! lol xD ... with regard to "something really happening" or "something that I am," anyway, which are both nowhere to be found.

Edited by The0Self

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16 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

Sure. It's something's propensity to be how it is.  

Will is the ability to direct one's consciousness / awareness

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@TreyMoney how does one decide where to direct one's consciousness / awareness?  


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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6 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

@TreyMoney how does one decide where to direct one's consciousness / awareness?  

By becoming conscious of their choices. You have to make the unconscious conscious.

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12 hours ago, Incognito said:

By becoming conscious of their choices. You have to make the unconscious conscious.

This doesn't really explain anything. Can you expand on this?   How does one become conscious of their choices, or make the unconscious conscious? 

I'm inclined to wonder if one can do either of these things if it never occurs to them to do them, and then I wonder who decides what occurs to them. 


"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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As far as I can see, quantum entanglement proves God knows all in advance. People will put forward instantaneous faster than light speed information-sharing, or even time travel (quantum eraser), to avoid God.

It's pretty obvious that the entire universe and all states beginning to end are known in advance.

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8 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

This doesn't really explain anything. Can you expand on this?   How does one become conscious of their choices, or make the unconscious conscious? 

I'm inclined to wonder if one can do either of these things if it never occurs to them to do them, and then I wonder who decides what occurs to them. 

It's the unconscious that decides for them. The ego is just a collection of the unconscious content that comes to the surface.

To make the unconscious conscious is a bit tricky, but not impossible. The body impulses are different from the rational choices.

For example, you know that eating junk food can make you sick but you keep on eating it because it tastes good.

Without discipline, man is not any different than an animal. If you let your body choose for you, then it's your body that decides for you (no "free" will).

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Posted (edited)

@Incognito hmmmm. Is my brain not 'my body'? I understand that my organism makes choices, like choosing these words carefully, but... could it make 'other choices' than the ones it does make? 

Also, I am an animal. But a rather intelligent dexterous one. I have powerful cognitive reasoning and memory function, which allow me to make vastly more complex choices than say, a mouse.. 

There's no magical 'free will' or 'self' hiding somewhere inside my organism telling my organism what to do, that separates me from 'other animals'. My organism functions all on it's own, just like a tree does, or a starfish.. which is exactly how it will. 

 

Edited by Mason Riggle

"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Incognito hmmmm. Is my brain not 'my body'? I understand that my organism makes choices, like choosing these words carefully, but... could it make 'other choices' than the ones it does make? 

Also, I am an animal. But a rather intelligent dexterous one. I have powerful cognitive reasoning and memory function, which allow me to make vastly more complex choices than say, a mouse.. 

There's no magical 'free will' or 'self' hiding somewhere inside my organism telling my organism what to do, that separates me from 'other animals'. My organism functions all on it's own, just like a tree does, or a starfish.. which is exactly how it will.

Well, if you want other choices and will them to happen, maybe they will. But that requires exercising your unconscious mind through conscious choices. When you train your body, the will of your body will be more aligned with the will of your mind because the body does not cooperate when the mind doesn't decides what to do. Most of our decisions are on autopilot because our body is most of the time controlled by unconscious urges (that may seem unwilled if the conscious choices are absent). I see that you equal the mind with the brain which is just a materialistic interpretation. The mind is not the brain.

Edited by Incognito

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11 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

could it make 'other choices' than the ones it does make?

That reasoning is a rhetorical ploy, obviously what happens is what happens, you can't make a point of the inevitable unfolding of the present moment as proof there was no potential for something other than what happens before we actually do what we do even if we don't do. Whether we do or not, we are aware of being.

This is a naturally occurring psychological trait, that we are AWARE of the deed is what creates the intent in the deed. Even if you tally up the sum total of deterministic effects that accounts for the selection of behavior there still is this metaphenomenal aspect with our aware conscious experience of being present in the moment.

Even if what happens is what happens, we are aware of the happening and this 'attention' creates the 'intention'. Within the mind we can envision any and all sorts of friction or harmony about this awareness of our being present in the moment of experience happening so can create misery or contentment for our mind as fruit of our imagination.

So it doesn't really matter if free will exists or not, it's the nature of our manifest existence experience that even if we choose not to decide we still have made a choice.

11 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

There's no magical 'free will' or 'self' hiding somewhere inside my organism telling my organism what to do, that separates me from 'other animals'

This statement reveals so much about your perception and perspective on this matter and after reading my words above you may gain some clarity as to why it does.

 

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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, SOUL said:

we are aware of being.

 we are aware of the happening

@SOUL ^this part of what you said is True. 

4 hours ago, Incognito said:

Well, if you want other choices and will them to happen, maybe they will.

@IncognitoNotice the 'IF'.. 'if you want'... 

what if I don't want? Who decides what I want? 

Also, I can't have 'other choices' that the ones that arise.  

Consider, if you were me (maybe you are), then you would be making the exact choices I am making right now. You would have no choice but to do so. 

4 hours ago, Incognito said:

I see that you equal the mind with the brain which is just a materialistic interpretation. The mind is not the brain.

^this is not correct. I equate 'the brain' with 'the body'.  If 'I' am not 'my body', then who am I?  Who are you talking to?

Edited by Mason Riggle

"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

what if I don't want? Who decides what I want? 

Also, I can't have 'other choices' that the ones that arise.  

Consider, if you were me (maybe you are), then you would be making the exact choices I am making right now. You would have no choice but to do so.

You decide whether you want or not. Not wanting is also wanting. And you are free to make your own choices and plan ahead. I'm sure that your choices aren't involuntary twitches of your body or brain.

And if I were you I would have been no different. Also, you do not have the subjective experience of being me. The influences are only internal and mental (the materialist interpretation says it's the brain chemicals and genetics but it's way more deep than that).

6 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

^this is not correct. I equate 'the brain' with 'the body'.  If 'I' am not 'my body', then who am I?

It's more like a "thought thinking itself", so it creates a body to reflect upon itself.

6 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

Who are you talking to?

Who are you talking to inside your head?

Edited by Incognito

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Posted (edited)

@Mason Riggle  Every time you post in these forums your actions betray your words. 

You are so intent on telling others what is true or correct but you are no authority on universal truth, just the author of your own belief system which you trust is true.

So be it.

 

Edited by SOUL

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Posted (edited)

On 6/18/2021 at 5:30 PM, Mason Riggle said:

There's no magical 'free will' or 'self' hiding somewhere inside my organism telling my organism what to do, that separates me from 'other animals'. My organism functions all on it's own, just like a tree does, or a starfish.. which is exactly how it will. 

So strangely enough Mason I agree with this.

The will is not free.

Let me work backwards and see if I can communicate this idea clearly.

The body acts (similar to, although more complex than, the tree or the starfish)

The actions of the body have 3 main causes all of which are intertwined
- The environment
- The body/brain/nervous system (physical / material aspect of organism)
- The mind (non-physical / energetic / life force aspect of organism)

The body's actions can be involuntary or voluntary. For example, the mind can voluntarily start or stop moving limbs, fingers etc, but the mind cannot voluntarily stop somethings like heart beat, breathing, blood flow, etc. Although these can be influenced by the mind.

But let me get to the point, you know all the above.

Who or what causes the voluntary actions right?

My answer is "the will"

The mind has specialized functions: like memory, imagination, emotion, concentration/attention/focus, introspection, and the will (aka volition)

There is no magical free will or self hiding inside the mind that performs these functions, these functions just are what the mind is and does.

And the will (or volition if you prefer that word, since it has less baggage than "will"), is that function of the mind that performs voluntary actions such as willing the body to move but more crucially willing and directing the concentration/attention/focus of the mind itself.

And what causes the will to choose what it wills? The environment, the body and the mind. Kind of circular logic, I know. 

 

Edited by TreyMoney

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Posted (edited)

14 hours ago, TreyMoney said:

The will is not free.

You call it 'the will'.. I call it 'what will'. 

Voluntary actions arise involuntarily.  

Edited by Mason Riggle

"I could be the walrus. I'd still have to bum rides off people."

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