Wilhelm44

How would a moneyless society come about ?

32 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Wilhelm44 said:

@integral  This is interesting. I am curious, in a flat hierarchy, do all the employees get paid a similar amount, or is it more a case of everyone receiving an equal or fair share of the profits the company makes ? 

Not equal but balanced/fair. The pay out to a single employ wont exceed more then 1-3x. Company earnings would be held in a company account not directly controlled by 1 individual. Blockchain systems can do all this, where each company has its own delegate governance system.. There is still a head figure, but what gives him that power is delegated power from the employes. 

There are alot of issues that can arise from this, just an idea of how we could go about doing all this and maybe something that can be implemented/experimented with today. 

Edited by integral

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21 minutes ago, integral said:

Not equal but balanced/fair. The pay out to a single employ wont exceed more then 1-3x. Company earnings would be held in a company account not directly controlled by 1 individual. Blockchain systems can do all this, where each company has its own delegate governance system.. There is still a head figure, but what gives him that power is delegated power from the employes. 

There are alot of issues that can arise from this, just an idea of how we could go about doing all this and maybe something that can be implemented/experimented with today. 

Thank you, and I see there are actually a number of big companies already doing something like this. 

 

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Probably from a combination of a sufficient quantity of both selflessness and abundance.

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34 minutes ago, erik8lrl said:

Through consciousness and technological advancement. Eventually, we will have technologies that can manipulate things on the atomic level. Potentially materializing anything we want, we might make a Dyson sphere to convert energy from the sun to any resources we need. This will equalize all material to the same value since there is no more scarcity. Thus there will be no need for money. To reach this level, we would have solved the unified field theory in physics, which will lead to the birth of many technologies that currently only exist in sci-fi novels. But it will also enable us the power to create weapons that are exponentially more powerful than what we have now. So we need most of the population to develop consciously to a point where we will not make or use these technologies for war and ends up killing everyone. If we reach that point, we will be able to work together as a whole and explore the universe as a higher-tier civilization.   

I remember reading about these Russian scientists a couple of years ago, who claimed to have discovered a way to turn any element on the periodic table into another element. I haven't heard from them since, so not sure if it was fake. But ultimately it must be possible. 

 

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On 4/16/2021 at 4:43 AM, Wilhelm44 said:

I don't mean a return to a barter economy. I'm thinking something more next level. Beyond crypto also. Would it simply be a case of technology eventually becoming so good that everything becomes so abundantly cheap that money essentially becomes redundant ?

That's an interesting question! Yea I imagine it would come about when basic commodities become so high performance, abundant, and ridiculously easy and cheap to produce that nobody has any real incentive to earn money to pay for those things anymore. People would be satisfied and comfortable enough with their living situation they'd rather spend the majority of their time on hobbies or passions or family, than spending that precious time working.

Of course I think for this to be possible a parallel cultural shift would have to happen along side it. People would have to kind of collectively agree to be content with a certain amount of square footage or standardized living space. As it would be obvious the planet can't sustain everyone having their own castle and huge property in nature.

Of course there will always be "greedy" people in comparison to the new culture, and outliers. I imagine they would live in sort of a "separate" society outside of these moneyless metropolis' where they still traded and offered services to get that excess wealth. I imagine most people would still opt for the moneyless society as they wouldn't have to work at all.

I think as automation and AI starts to ramp up a lot of it's utility will go towards making the economy more exponentially efficient. We could actually start seeing proto-moneyless pockets of society in our lifetime, where UBI starts offering enough satisfactory standards of living the people simply stop caring about money. Why would we keep doing menial labor jobs that we could make robots do?


"If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him."

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1 hour ago, Roy said:

That's an interesting question! Yea I imagine it would come about when basic commodities become so high performance, abundant, and ridiculously easy and cheap to produce that nobody has any real incentive to earn money to pay for those things anymore. People would be satisfied and comfortable enough with their living situation they'd rather spend the majority of their time on hobbies or passions or family, than spending that precious time working.

Of course I think for this to be possible a parallel cultural shift would have to happen along side it. People would have to kind of collectively agree to be content with a certain amount of square footage or standardized living space. As it would be obvious the planet can't sustain everyone having their own castle and huge property in nature.

Of course there will always be "greedy" people in comparison to the new culture, and outliers. I imagine they would live in sort of a "separate" society outside of these moneyless metropolis' where they still traded and offered services to get that excess wealth. I imagine most people would still opt for the moneyless society as they wouldn't have to work at all.

I think as automation and AI starts to ramp up a lot of it's utility will go towards making the economy more exponentially efficient. We could actually start seeing proto-moneyless pockets of society in our lifetime, where UBI starts offering enough satisfactory standards of living the people simply stop caring about money. Why would we keep doing menial labor jobs that we could make robots do?

I couldn't agree more. Perhaps things are evolving naturally in that direction and also much faster than we think. 

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When every human has such an inclusive view that they have basically embodied selflessness and have a love for everyone. That has to apply to 7 billion + people... don’t think scarcity is ending anytime soon

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Posted (edited)

There is already a established example of a moneyless society (albeit for a finite duration). Burning Man is an large-scale event in the Nevada desert. The city is 9 square miles, and has a population of around 100,000. It has an airport, hospitals, fire departments, streets, and a center community hun with it's own café. There is no money transactions allowed in the city (except for ice and the café in the community hub). This society is based off of what is called a 'gifting community'.

This is not barter, which is 'I'll give you what I have in exchange for what you have'. This is, 'I will give you what I have, selflessly, and I expect nothing in return'. In a way, it is the opposite of capitalism, which is selfishness.

This gifting way of society manifests itself in wonderful ways. With the gifting community, people are always looking for ways to contribute to each other, whether it be helping someone with their living space, volunteering to help construct their art installation, volunteering shifts to help out a camp, or just being a moral booster and water supplier for tired workers. Anywhere you go people will gift you food, alcohol, drinks. People gift drugs, clothes, supplies. There is a saying at BM, "the playa will provide", meaning whatever you need, others will gift it.

You might think, "what if someone takes advantage of this?". I've never really seen this happen. It's hard for this way of life to not affect you on a deep level and lead to you wanting to be your best self.

Sure, this city, with this model of 'gifting', only exists for one week a year. And it takes a whole lot of capitalistic spending to be able to make the city happen, before we can all enjoy the gifting community temporarily. Still, it gives a glimpse of what could be. It proves that humans flourish in a gifting/contribution based society. 

But, Burning Man has been moving away from a week-long event in Nevada and more towards regional events that happen year-round. There are regional BM communities all around the world, and they keep that 'gifting community' lifestyle alive year-round. https://regionals.burningman.org. For those that have lived and experienced what is like to live in a contribution based society, there is really no going back. You are always looking for ways to contribute to others in whatever way you can.

And maybe this small example of what is possible could catch on and slowly spread to other cultures and societies, and maybe one day be the replacement for capitalism. Where everyone asks what can I do for you, instead of what can everybody else do for me. 

---------------------------------------------------

The 10 Principles of Burning Man

Burning Man founder Larry Harvey wrote the 10 Principles. They were crafted not as a dictate of how people should be and act, but as a reflection of the community’s ethos and culture as it had organically developed since the event’s inception.

Radical Inclusion
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

Gifting
Burning Man is devoted to acts of gift giving. The value of a gift is unconditional. Gifting does not contemplate a return or an exchange for something of equal value.

Decommodification
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

Radical Self-reliance
Burning Man encourages the individual to discover, exercise and rely on their inner resources.

Radical Self-expression
Radical self-expression arises from the unique gifts of the individual. No one other than the individual or a collaborating group can determine its content. It is offered as a gift to others. In this spirit, the giver should respect the rights and liberties of the recipient.

Communal Effort
Our community values creative cooperation and collaboration. We strive to produce, promote and protect social networks, public spaces, works of art, and methods of communication that support such interaction.

Civic Responsibility
We value civil society. Community members who organize events should assume responsibility for public welfare and endeavor to communicate civic responsibilities to participants. They must also assume responsibility for conducting events in accordance with local, state and federal laws.

Leaving No Trace
Our community respects the environment. We are committed to leaving no physical trace of our activities wherever we gather. We clean up after ourselves and endeavor, whenever possible, to leave such places in a better state than when we found them.

Participation
Our community is committed to a radically participatory ethic. We believe that transformative change, whether in the individual or in society, can occur only through the medium of deeply personal participation. We achieve being through doing. Everyone is invited to work. Everyone is invited to play. We make the world real through actions that open the heart.

Immediacy
Immediate experience is, in many ways, the most important touchstone of value in our culture. We seek to overcome barriers that stand between us and a recognition of our inner selves, the reality of those around us, participation in society, and contact with a natural world exceeding human powers. No idea can substitute for this experience.

Edited by Sempiternity

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Posted (edited)

9 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

That "love based society" will never happen. It's not possible.

@Blackhawk

Open your mind

Ego transcendence is possible. And it's the ego that wishes for 50 big houses for itself

You not being alive when that time comes on Earth doesn't equal "not possible"

Without ego, one house suffices. The rest of your energy is spent on sharing love and wisdom, not coming up with ideas on how to get 49 more houses. You really think that's not possible? Why is it so far-fetched to you

Edited by blankisomeone

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5 hours ago, Lyubov said:

When every human has such an inclusive view that they have basically embodied selflessness and have a love for everyone. That has to apply to 7 billion + people... don’t think scarcity is ending anytime soon

:x:x:x

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14 minutes ago, blankisomeone said:

@Blackhawk

Open your mind

Ego transcendence is possible. And it's the ego that wishes for 50 big houses for itself

You not being alive when that time comes on Earth doesn't equal "not possible"

I don't think it will ever be possible.

Having an open mind doesn't mean that you buy everything. It's called open minded skepticism. I wouldn't be in this forum at all if I wouldn't be open minded.

But let's agree to disagree.


"Namaste. F**k this sh*t!"

— Jeff Foster

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34 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

But let's agree to disagree.

Let's agree to disagree and let us both have a good night.

I love that!

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