Being triggered by vegans

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   That's still relative to who you are in that situation, from the arrested one, to the one arresting, which one are you? You could even be the prison itself, and I'd tell you that your existence in this limited world is still relative to other objects and happenings. Right now, vegans are relatively speaking less valuable to me, and that's because of my mind, body, and life experiences that's relatively separates other diets, including vegans. Plants are different to me now, because I'm feeling more sorry for them putting up with humans eating them, yet that too is relative.

Everything is relative. You're saying nothing. The end.

[Axiomatic]

@neutralempty imagine someone trying to make veganism a law by comparing it to slavery. They'd get their ass shut down boi. Terrible comparison to make. 

[Scholar]

2 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   That's still relative to who you are in that situation, from the arrested one, to the one arresting, which one are you? You could even be the prison itself, and I'd tell you that your existence in this limited world is still relative to other objects and happenings. Right now, vegans are relatively speaking less valuable to me, and that's because of my mind, body, and life experiences that's relatively separates other diets, including vegans. Plants are different to me now, because I'm feeling more sorry for them putting up with humans eating them, yet that too is relative.

Can you see that your ego mind takes this wonderful realization of relativity and turns it into a tool that it can use to serve it's own purposes? Just notice this right now, because right now it is happening. You sneaky little devil. This is why we seperate spiritual insights from morality, because the devil is always tempted to use anything, no matter what it is, to justify itself and it's own devilry.

This kind of behaviour has been described in Spiral Dynamics, you are quite literally showcasing excessive relativism. We have all been there, but you will see it will not lead you anywhere. You will return, and the world will still remain as is, just that you have this new perspective. And you will see how your ego will hate it when someone uses relativity against you, like you are right now. Then you will understand "Aha, it is not appropriate to use relativity to dismiss moral arguments!".

And then you will have gained an important new insight. See, it is precisely because reality is relative, that this insight of relativity is meaningful only to the degree you make it meaningful. In the grander sense, reality is not relative nor anti-relative. But again, this is useless in the current environment we are in. In this environment, consistency is imporant. This is how we make moral progess. We ask "Why is it okay to enslave a black person but not a white person?". We generate answers, and if we find those answers to be unsatisfying, we have to change. This is just how things go, otherwise you will be reduced to barbarism.

[Axiomatic]

 

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

1 minute ago, Scholar said:

Contemplate when it is appropriate to use relativity and when it is used as a defense mechansim. When we are in a meditation retreat and we are learning about the nature of reality and mind, talking about relativity is appropriate.

When I am raping a child and someone calls me out for it, talking about relativity is not appropriate. This should be obvious. In general, to avoid this kind of devilry, I recommend to seperate spirituality from morality, much like you would seperate it from any other type of imaginary tool, like physics.

 

If we are discussing physics, and you keep telling me that all I am doing is relative, and how I am not seeing that all types of physics are just relative to each perspective, then I am actually not doing anything useful. I am actually disrupting the process. You are doing the same when you bring this up in terms of morality.

You are just muddying the waters, please google this term.

 

   Relativity does not depend on a human's demand for it to be applied appropriate, because that's coming from a tiny limited perspective, relative to relativity itself. The time to talk about relativity is relative to the situation and types of species of humans talking about relativity. I'll agree with you a tiny bit that yes, depending (relative) on the situation, some situations are better at masturbating relativity on a mental level, and some situations are not productive to talking about relativity because of a perspective's survival, but even that is relative, regardless if you're busy in a meditative retreat, or busy handling you're sexuality, or busy handling physics particles, that's still relative! Can't you not see that such separations is occur regardless of you wanting such things?

   I've offered my perspective on vegetables, and my position is mostly neutral and slightly on vegans actually. Even when I'm supportive of vegan diets, I still get back stabbed by vegans, as soon as I point to how relative their perspective is. Vegan perspective is really sensitive, even when I'm forcefully being vanilla in my stance.

    

   

[Village]

10 minutes ago, Scholar said:

When I am raping a child and someone calls me out for it, talking about relativity is not appropriate. This should be obvious. In general, to avoid this kind of devilry, I recommend to seperate spirituality from morality, much like you would seperate it from any other type of imaginary tool, like physics.

Morality doesn't exist anywhere outside of your mind, just spend one day out in the jungle and you'll learn that. I don't know why you're even having this conversation.

[Axiomatic]

1 minute ago, neutralempty said:

@Axiomatic

Imagine someone who keeps opinions on reality without understanding the underlying basis from where he is coming from. This one would be like a computer programm. 

I agree that veganism would help the environment and stop the process of over slaughtering animals. But I'm not gonna let you slide on that one. That was a foolish comment for you to make. Straight up, no way around it. 

[Scholar]

1 minute ago, Axiomatic said:

@neutralempty imagine someone trying to make veganism a law by comparing it to slavery. They'd get their ass shut down boi. Terrible comparison to make. 

How is it a bad comparison? I think you will be surprised, because eventually people will view the animal holocaust as far worse than any human holocaust, and any type of human slavery. They will look at your comment and think "How could they have not seen the obvious?".

It is precisely because you view animals not as individuals, much like people used to look at other races, that you find it so offensive to compare aimals to humans, to compare what is happening to animals to slavery. This is actually the entire issue, that you do not view them as individuals.

 

“When I see cages crammed with chickens from battery farms thrown on trucks like bundles of trash, I see, with the eyes of my soul, the Umschlagplatz (where Jews were forced onto trains leaving for the death camps). When I go to a restaurant and see people devouring meat, I feel sick. I see a holocaust on their plates.”

Georges Metanomski, a Holocaust survivor who fought in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

 

“I refuse to eat animals because I cannot nourish myself by the sufferings and by the death of other creatures. I refuse to do so, because I suffered so painfully myself that I can feel the pains of others by recalling my own sufferings.”

Edgar Kupfer-Koberwitz, Dachau concentration camp survivor

 

“ ‘Never again’ is not about what others shouldn’t do to us. It’s about what we shouldn’t do to others. ‘Never again’ means that we must never again perpetrate mass atrocities against other living beings. That we must never again raise animals for food or any other form of exploitation.”

Dr. Alex Hershaft, Warsaw Ghetto survivor

 

“In the midst of our high-tech, ostentatious, hedonistic lifestyle, among the dazzling monuments to history, art, religion, and commerce, there are the black boxes. These are the biomedical research laboratories, factory farms, and slaughterhouses – faceless compounds where society conducts its dirty business of abusing and killing innocent, feeling beings. These are our Dachaus, our Buchenwalds, our Birkenaus. Like the good German burghers, we have a fair idea of what goes on there, but we don’t want any reality checks.”

Dr. Alex Hershaft, Warsaw Ghetto survivor

 

“What do they know-all these scholars, all these philosophers, all the leaders of the world – about such as you? They have convinced themselves that man, the worst transgressor of all the species, is the crown of creation. All other creatures were created merely to provide him with food, pelts, to be tormented, exterminated. In relation to them, all people are Nazis; for the animals it is an eternal Treblinka.”

Isaac Bashevis Singer – a member of a family perished in the Holocaust and a Nobel Prize winner

 

“As often as Herman had witnessed the slaughter of animals and fish, he always had the same thought: in their behaviour towards creatures, all men were Nazis. The smugness with which man could do with other species as he pleased exemplified the most extreme racist theories, the principle that might is right.”

Isaac Bashevis Singer – a member of a family perished in the Holocaust and a Nobel Prize winner

 

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Can you see that your ego mind takes this wonderful realization of relativity and turns it into a tool that it can use to serve it's own purposes? Just notice this right now, because right now it is happening. You sneaky little devil. This is why we seperate spiritual insights from morality, because the devil is always tempted to use anything, no matter what it is, to justify itself and it's own devilry.

This kind of behaviour has been described in Spiral Dynamics, you are quite literally showcasing excessive relativism. We have all been there, but you will see it will not lead you anywhere. You will return, and the world will still remain as is, just that you have this new perspective. And you will see how your ego will hate it when someone uses relativity against you, like you are right now. Then you will understand "Aha, it is not appropriate to use relativity to dismiss moral arguments!".

And then you will have gained an important new insight. See, it is precisely because reality is relative, that this insight of relativity is meaningful only to the degree you make it meaningful. In the grander sense, reality is not relative nor anti-relative. But again, this is useless in the current environment we are in. In this environment, consistency is imporant. This is how we make moral progess. We ask "Why is it okay to enslave a black person but not a white person?". We generate answers, and if we find those answers to be unsatisfying, we have to change. This is just how things go, otherwise you will be reduced to barbarism.

   Of course I can see myself turning this realization of relativity to sort of benefit me, but that depends on if I have cosmic levels of will power and properties which could bend relativity for my own benefit, to which I have very little of, so no matter my ego, relativity does not bend down to me, but I to it. Trust me, If I am capable of such epic feats, I'd have designed my own world for myself to live on, independent of other things, including relativity.

   Your assumptions about me is relative to what I have said so far being truthful or false. Also, you claiming I'm gonna be sorry if relativity is used against me? Again, so much assuming coming from you, you don't know if I love it when relativity is used tightly against me, depending on if I have a personality that loves pain, or a different one that doesn't, or some other personality, yet even all that is relative.

   Sorry, there's no such thing as consistency, as that is subject to relativity, to different degrees of time flow, which is why so many vegans can't equally appreciate the lives of plants and the live of animals, because animals have faster time flow relative to plant's development, such that we feel more sorry for animals over plants.

   

[Scholar]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   Of course I can see myself turning this realization of relativity to sort of benefit me, but that depends on if I have cosmic levels of will power and properties which could bend relativity for my own benefit, to which I have very little of, so no matter my ego, relativity does not bend down to me, but I to it. Trust me, If I am capable of such epic feats, I'd have designed my own world for myself to live on, independent of other things, including relativity.

   Your assumptions about me is relative to what I have said so far being truthful or false. Also, you claiming I'm gonna be sorry if relativity is used against me? Again, so much assuming coming from you, you don't know if I love it when relativity is used tightly against me, depending on if I have a personality that loves pain, or a different one that doesn't, or some other personality, yet even all that is relative.

   Sorry, there's no such thing as consistency, as that is subject to relativity, to different degrees of time flow, which is why so many vegans can't equally appreciate the lives of plants and the live of animals, because animals have faster time flow relative to plant's development, such that we feel more sorry for animals over plants.

   

Okay my brother, have a nice day.

[Danioover9000]

@Carl-Richard

23 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Everything is relative. You're saying nothing. The end.

   Of course I'm not saying nothing, because I'm typing not speaking. Totally different mediums, which are relative to one another.

[Danioover9000]

@neutralempty

17 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Axiomatic

Imagine someone who keeps opinions on reality without understanding the underlying basis from where he is coming from. This one would be like a computer programm. 

   Yet this is relative to how that person's mind and body is shaped, and hat shapes how each person understanding differently than the other. The understanding that an A.I has, is different from an animals, is different from a human's, is different from an alien, and so on.

[Danioover9000]

@K Ghoul

18 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

Here’s one possible course of action. Please note I’m taking this approach on how to remedy conflicts between two opposing perspectives from our fellow vegan:
 

   Yet, that is one of many ways to enforce morality. Unfortunately, it's still relative.

[Scholar]

23 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

It should be left to situations where it is called for.  Of course if you rape a child you should go to prison.
What if we all went around imposing our morality on others, based on what we felt was personally right?

That is what is happening in this context.

You are fighting for your sense of morality.  At the expense of your "cause".

This is not correct, Keyhole. I don't think everyone can impose their morality unless that morality matches with mine. There is nothing inconsistent about this. In the context of veganism, I think once we have established a certain majority, it will be perfectly moral to enforce this new moral standard by law, so to protect animals from being murdered at the threat of prison. This is not different from how laws work today.

I am not fighting my own sense of morality, you simply have not investigated what my sense of morality is. It seems to me this is the case because you are more interested in poking holes than actually trying to learn anything from me.

Next time if you are unsure about what my sense of morality is, just ask. I have put some thought into this Keyhole, so please don't be uncharitable. You are currently arguing with a strawman of your own creation.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar  The only relationshit we have is textbox, which is relative to the language typed. But yeah, hopefully have a nice day yourself.

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

15 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is not correct, Keyhole. I don't think everyone can impose their morality unless that morality matches with mine. There is nothing inconsistent about this. In the context of veganism, I think once we have established a certain majority, it will be perfectly moral to enforce this new moral standard by law, so to protect animals from being murdered at the threat of prison. This is not different from how laws work today.

I am not fighting my own sense of morality, you simply have not investigated what my sense of morality is. It seems to me this is the case because you are more interested in poking holes than actually trying to learn anything from me.

Next time if you are unsure about what my sense of morality is, just ask. I have put some thought into this Keyhole, so please don't be uncharitable. You are currently arguing with a strawman of your own creation.

   The only way for a perspective to impose on another perspective, is when there's separation already, hence relativity.

[Scholar]

5 minutes ago, K Ghoul said:

If this turns out to be true, and vegan diet does indeed cause fertility problems, then this is pretty much free, self-run eugenics program that you guys are doing. I guess keep it going 

I don't understand why this would make you happy. It seems like you want veganism to be unhealthy. Why would you not want it to be healthy?

 

Aside from that, I take science over random articles on the internet.

[Michal__]

If you don't get where stage green / vegans are coming from you likely aren't above them.

[Scholar]

9 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Scholar

   The only way for a perspective to impose on another perspective, is when there's separation already, hence relativity.

Yes, this is true. But also not true, only from your current perspective this is valid. Relativity itself is relative. This is the beauty of Creation. You will not capture this with the mind, infact you cannot capture this with your own perspective. Any perspective, and belief about relativity you offer, will not escape this.

Danio, you are facing the issue of attempting to capture the arational with a rational mind. This within the concept-thought structure will lead to all kinds of loops. It is much like attempting to capture a 3d object on a 2d surface. How could you possible capture the entirety of the 3d object on the 2d surface? It will always be a snapshot of the object. And even worse, if you try to capture all of the 3d object from all it's 2d angles, you will have a mess. There will be lines over lines, contradictions of positions of corners. Corners will be at multiple places at once, and edges too! And you still don't have the 3d object, you still only have 2d shapes.

 

This is what happens when the mind tries to take relativity into the realm of the rational. The arational is unconstraint, rationality is constraint.

 

So, all of this what you say does not really change anything about what I say. Everything I say functions the same way under your relative paradigm of relativity.

[Scholar]

Just now, K Ghoul said:

And I don’t understand what made you think that watching people assassinating their own health is making me happy.

I simply let you do what you are free to do with your own body. It’s not that I’m happy with it, it’s just that I don’t have a problem with it - you are doing this to yourself. 
The time I will though start having a problem with this is when and if you try and start imposing your derangement upon others.

I don't think that watching people assassinate their own health makes you happy at all. I don't know why you think that I think that.

I also let you do what you want to with your own body, but as soon as you are forcing your own subjectivity onto others, like killing a pig, then I think it is appropriate to keep you from doing this, especially if you do not need the consumption of flesh to survive.

 

You already are imposing your own needs onto others. As long as you take yourself the right to put a pig into a gaschamber, I will take myself the right to confront you about this. You are taking this too personal, I simply want to protect the pig.

 

You do not need to consume flesh to survive, and if you did, you would certainly not need to consume pigs. There are many things that would be consumed far before we would consider killing a pig.