Nyseto

Level of consciousness of Antifa and BLM?

99 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

Did you really pull the Venezuela card? 😂

That is nowhere near what I’m advocating for and the U.S. has a very different history, structural systems, wealth and power dynamics than Venezuela. 

The U.S. is a mixture of socialism and capitalism. It’s not binary of 100% capitalist or 100% socialist. The U.S. is not going to become a purely socialist or communist country. That is a strawman. The question is wether the U.S. is too far shifted toward capitalism or socialism. To me, the U.S. is glaringly shifted toward capitalism to the point of toxic capitalism. Look at the military industrial complex, the most inefficient healthcare system in the developed world, for-profit prison system, lobbyists, election funding, wealth inequality etc. I would advocate for a shift that disempowers toxic capitalism and empowers healthy socialism. Yet this is a shift, within a hybrid system. I would say Denmark is an example. I think the best we can hope for at this point is regulated capitalism with a strong social net. Countries with such systems consistently rank highest is wellness.

Lol! But see look man, you're already pre judging it as the big bad "Venezuela card" from the horrible right. The left and the right do this to eachother everyday, this is why they can't work together from too much animosity. I hope you can be open minded enough and offer some good points on it. I'd like to know. 

The left is all about globalization therefore we can't ignore Venezuela. What is up with Venezuela? 

Edited by Nyseto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

Lol! But see look man, you're already pre judging it as the big bad "Venezuela card" from the horrible right.

No, I’m not. I see it as a ridiculous absurd point that has zero relevance to what I’m talking about. It would be like you saying “we can’t deal with the covid crisis because microbes don’t exist”. I would laugh that you pulled the covid hoax card. 

If you think I’m advocating for a Venezuelan system of government, you are so far from what I’m actually talking about that we can’t have a discussion.
 

8 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I hope you can be open minded enough and offer some good points on it. I'd like to know. 

I’ve given over a dozen points about toxic capitalism and how shifting some toxic capitalism toward social programs would be beneficial. Yet you don’t seem to want to discuss the issues.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I want to know what you think of this one issue. Venezuela used to be capitalist and ever since it started going socialist, they've gone downhill. Why?

Venezuela was not Socialist, it functioned more like a Scandinavian style Social Democracy. It ''failed'' because its function was to serve as a United Stated oil colony, so it was entirely dependent on oil. So when the United States and Saudi Arabia artificially deflated the price of oil to strike Russia, Venezuela was the collateral damage.

Venezuela tried the neo liberal libertarian route and it didn't work.

 

 


''To be happy we must not be too concerned with others''.

Albert Camus

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

No, I’m not. I’m seeing it as a ridiculous absurd point that has zero relevance to what I’m talking about. It would be like you asking “but how can we deal with the climate crisis if the world is flat”. I would laugh that you pulled a flat earth card. 
 

I’ve given over a dozen points about toxic capitalism and how shifting some toxic capitalism toward social programs would be beneficial. Yet you don’t seem to want to discuss the issues.

I understand your point on toxic capitalism and social programs being beneficial. I don't disagree. 

I've addressed your point, now will you address mine? 😁 

You're pro universal healthcare and education which is socialistic. 

What's up with Venezuela? Let's say I'm your 10 year old kid and I come home saying, "If socialism works, then what happened in Venezuela? All these Trump supporters talk about Venezuela. What are they on to? Are they all just tripping balls or what? 74 million people is a lot of people." 

Edited by Nyseto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

I understand your point on toxic capitalism and social programs being beneficial. I don't disagree. 

I've addressed your point, now will you address mine? 😁

What's up with Venezuela? Let's say I'm your 10 year old kid and I come home saying, "If socialism works, then what happened in Venezuela? All these Trump supporters talk about Venezuela. What are they on to? Are they all just tripping balls or what?" 

I’m not interested in discussing Venezuela any more than I am discussing covid hoax conspiracy theories. The Venezuela government is a red herring relative to what I advocate for. If you would like to discuss how Canadian and Scandinavian systems are more advanced than the U.S., sure. That is the direction I want to move. 

You seem to have an endless supply of distractions from addressing underlying issues such as systemic racism, animal cruelty, toxic capitalism, beneficial social programs etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nyseto said:

I understand your point on toxic capitalism and social programs being beneficial. I don't disagree. 

I've addressed your point, now will you address mine? 😁

What's up with Venezuela? Let's say I'm your 10 year old kid and I come home saying, "If socialism works, then what happened in Venezuela? All these Trump supporters talk about Venezuela. What are they on to? Are they all just tripping balls or what?" 

Debating this is really ineffective. When you are ignorant about a topic, it usually is better to do some research. Here you have one article:

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/08/08/fact-check-socialism-alone-did-not-destroy-venezuelas-economy/3323566001/

 

It is a bit unfair to come here and expect Forestluv to explain to you why an argument is not really an argument, when you don't even yourself know what the argument truly is. You come to such a discussion to test your ideas, that you hopefully put some effort into. Not so Forest can spoon feed you facts about Venezuela. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Forestluv said:

I’m not interested in discussing Venezuela any more than I am discussing covid hoax conspiracy theories. The Venezuela government is a red herring relative to what I advocate for. If you would like to discuss how Canadian and Scandinavian systems are more advanced than the U.S., sure. 

But I have family in Venezuela and I care for them. 

Canada and Scandinavia are doing pretty well though. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Scholar It’s similar to those that deny microbes exist. I just don’t have the time or patience to deconstruct bs. Thanks for posting the link.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, Forestluv said:

@Scholar It’s similar to those that deny microbes exist. I just don’t have the time or patience to deconstruct bs. Thanks for posting the link.

Do they really? Everything is just a concept 😉

 

Edited by Nyseto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Nyseto said:

But I have family in Venezuela and I care for them. 

Canada and Scandinavia are doing pretty well though. 

I didn’t say Venezuela lacks value or is irrelevant. I’m saying it has nothing to do with what I’m advocating for. Yet I can imagine how seeing suffering in Venezuela would condition someone with a strong aversion to that system of government - of which I do not advocate.

Yes, Canada and Scandinavia are more evolved than the U.S. That is the direction I’d like to move.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Forestluv said:

I didn’t say Venezuela lacks value or is irrelevant. I’m saying it has nothing to do with what I’m advocating for. Yet I can imagine how seeing suffering in Venezuela would condition someone with a strong aversion to that system of government - of which I do not advocate.

Yes, Canada and Scandinavia are more evolved than the U.S. That is the direction I’d like to move.

They are quite evolved. 

067.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nyseto said:

Do they really? Everything is just a concept 😉

Depends on context. In one context they exist, in another they don’t. Yet anti-germers have it wrong in one context (although aspects of their argument is true).

Everything I write is both true and false, depending on context. If I say the ear is the elephant, I don’t mean to say the tail is not the e,phantom. Yet it would be incorrect to say the ear is the tail. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Nyseto Overall, I would consider Canada more evolved at a Orange-green level. The U.S. is about a stage lower, on average, imo. Yet this does not mean EVERY Canadian is higher evolved than EVERY American. That is the whole point of averages. For example, men on average are taller than women. Yet of course we can find a woman talker than a man.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

they are stage green, many of them falling into the mean green fallacy 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Nyseto said:

Spiral Dynamics has been a new theory to me after stumbling upon Leo's work. What I've realized is that it's only a theory at best to classify levels of consciousness. But consciousness itself isn't exactly small or big since it's infinite. I can see Spiral Dynamics turned into another tool of the ego by saying "I'm stage Yellow and you're blue, therefore I'm superior." If we are to be truly conscious, we'd have to leave Spiral Dynamics aside as it would become an obstacle. Not saying it can't be talked about or analyzed, there's just a bigger picture.

The hilarious irony here is that you can also use that point to boost your ego. Infact, every argument or action in general can be used that way. I know you're new to it, but if there is one job Leo has excelled at is teaching people on this forum about the limits of SD. The vast majority of people here have heard this point a hundred times over, therefore you mentioning it just makes my ears bleed. To beat this ghost of a horse completely out of existence: every statement ever is based on concepts and constructs that are limited in their applicability, so mentioning that fact ad nauseum, especially in a place like this, especially when it's not a central part of the discussion, has in virtually all cases zero benefit.

About consciousness and infinity, absolute infinity must contain all possible limitations per definition. "Levels of consciousness" is therefore not a contradiction to infinity. Contradictions are also not a problem for infinity, because it must also contain all contradictions. A contradiction is just one perspective clashing with another. Infinity contains all that.

Edited by Carl-Richard

To balance beauty and complexity so perfectly is a divine mystery.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

About consciousness and infinity, absolute infinity must contain all possible limitations per definition. "Levels of consciousness" is therefore not a contradiction. That is also not a problem, because it must also contain all contradictions. A contradiction is just one perspective clashing with another. Infinity contains all that.

So liberating and beautiful.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Destroying innocent people's property is a low consciousness activity, no matter how good the cause is.

Liberals are mostly above average when it comes to consciousness but come on. If you think this is ok try to imagine yourself in the position of the people whose shops were burned down.

The cause is good, the people looting are idiots.

Edited by Michal__

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As a whole BLM supporters are nerdy liberal women and men, very young of all races usually college students, they aren’t rioters and they aren’t antifa, antifa is of a lower level of consciousness than BLM if you ask me as whole but OF COURSE there will be individuals that are lower and higher than the collective consciousness of the group, these are the ones usually evidenced in right wing propaganda.

from what I’ve seen as antifa they will be violent but they will usually be in a position of property destruction or defense of a group of people from Neo nazi groups. Violence and property destruction dont automatically = bad 

back in the revolutionary war the rebels tarred and feathered people, raped women and destroyed king Georges tea and are celebrated as heroes, history will judge BLM nicely maybe even antifa nicely but since they are militant leftists I doubt it, like it’s been said they are a green backlash to blue and red and sometimes they can be toxic or sometime they can be healthy it depends on the individual but on the spiral I would put both at green with BLM slightly higher 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now