Why is eating meat "bad" or less evolved lets say?

[PurpleTree]

Also if i could stop mass animal factory farming today then i would, i think that's overdoing it by a long shot.

 

But also some things like Avocados which most vegans love are environmentally very problematic for the "carbon footprint" etc. they consume masses of water and need to be imported to Europe for example. Woodlands and forests get cut down to grow them etc.

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

2 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

My point is to be careful with moral relativism, because weak and confused minds will use it to justify stagnation.

That is true. The problem however is that you also don't want to fall into false absolutes. Facing the uncertainty of not knowing what things like moral/immoral, good/bad etc. mean is pretty difficult.

17 minutes ago, datamonster said:

Well, no. There's quite a significant difference between what is culturally acceptable and what is morally acceptable.

Again, owing slaves was only acceptable because of the culture surrounding it. Back in the caveperson days, rape wasn't morally unacceptable. It was part of their lives because culture hadn't devolved yet. I agree that morals and culture aren't the same thing, I wasn't talking for myself. But it's true for most average people. That's generally a problem for most Tier 1 stages on spiral dynamics. Stage blue people will have different morals than a stage green person for example. Your morals start adapting as you climb up the spiral. A culture which is based on stage blue will have different morals than a culture which is based on stage orange for example.

[integral]

29 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Sure! I eat dairy from time to time to see how my body reacts to it. Does it react better or worse? I eat processed sugar to check for the same. A part of me still can't believe that my body doesn't like these things!

The real reason I turned vegan is not because 'I should save animals' or 'It isn't moral to use animals for taste pleasure'. No dogmatism like that from my side. The real reason is that as I evolved more and more, my body started to react badly to meat, dairy, bread, junk food and other processed foods. My body started to gain less energy from eating these foods than was being spent in digesting it. It was as if the body wanted to expel meat/milk/yoghurt from the body instead of assimilating the nutrients from it! I literally had to do it to survive after a certain point in my own evolution.

what do you eat? 

Edited October 10, 2020 by integral

[Village]

38 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I'm actually the exception to this rule. My favorite food as a kid was raw fruits and vegetables! I didn't like meat and I didn't like eggs. I didn't like junk food. All of this other stuff has been an acquired taste for me.

Makes sense, I don't like charcoal either, I eat raw meat  

37 minutes ago, datamonster said:

What nutrient can be stored in the liver for 10 years? 

I think 7 years with regular blood checks is quite an OK sample to confirm that it's save...

And how do you explain happy, strong and healthy people who have been vegan for 10+ years? There are many.

What are you talking about? If anything we are brainwashed to eat meat...

And BTW nothing that we do or eat existed "in nature". The chicken you eat tripled in size just over the past 50 years...

 

I think you and I have different definitions of what it means to be healthy. Many vegans I've met are pale, underweight, dependent on caffeine and sugar, have gas (people think farting is normal but it's not), yet they claim to be "perfectly healthy". They've never eaten raw meat so they don't know just how amazing your baseline feeling is supposed to be.

It doesn't matter that today's animals are bred. The fact remains that our natural diet consists of meat, whether it be a mammoth or a fat chicken. Wild veggies, on the contrary, are by and large very toxic. If someone was stupid enough to pull this carrot out of the ground and try to eat it, he was soon punished by nature and would throw up all day long.

36 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

That's not even remotely true, don't spit unscientific nonsense.

Make your case then.

[Village]

16 minutes ago, PurpleTree said:

Also if i could stop mass animal factory farming today then i would, i think that's overdoing it by a long shot.

 

But also some things like Avocados which most vegans love are environmentally very problematic for the "carbon footprint" etc. they consume masses of water and need to be imported to Europe for example. Woodlands and forests get cut down to grow them etc.

Agriculture as a whole is very destructive to the environment, and ironically kills more animals than any slaughterhouse.

[PurpleTree]

9 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

That's generally a problem for most Tier 1 stages on spiral dynamics. Stage blue people will have different morals than a stage green person for example. Your morals start adapting as you climb up the spiral. A culture which is based on stage blue will have different morals than a culture which is based on stage orange for example.

I don't know much about spiral dynamics but it does have something to do with "stages of development" right?

So you do think people who aren't eating meat are more evolved if they have a higher stage of morals?

[shallotsometimes]

@PurpleTree Yes, there is absolutely no need for factory farming. At the same time, we would not be able to feed meat to all the meat-eaters on the planet if animals were all raised on pastures. Takes up too much land.

We're also overfishing our oceans which is screwing with the entire ecosystem. And I think everyone knows how terrible beef is for the environment with all of the methane released and water used up... Stop eating beef at least please yall.

Also, have you guys heard of pig shit lagoons? Fucking gross. Pigs poop 8-10x more than humans on a daily basis. And of course these lagoons are negatively affecting POC communities.

[commie]

25 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

I agree that morals and culture aren't the same thing, I wasn't talking for myself. But it's true for most average people.

In my experience, most people do not have the morals of their culture. They more pretend to, more or less effectively and more or less artfully.

The problem with moral relativism is simply that it denies the self-evident moral absolute: your morals.

[Parththakkar12]

32 minutes ago, integral said:

what do you eat? 

I'm Indian. Here in India, it's very easy to be vegan! It's very easy to make good Indian food that's vegan. Will have all the nutrients you need.

There's a lot of Hindu religious traditions here that are heavily identified with being vegetarian. Cow-worshipping is a thing here because of which beef either is illegal or was illegal here. I wanted beef to be legal when I was a meat-eater!

Edited October 10, 2020 by Parththakkar12

[Village]

5 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

@Village

What case, you're the one who stated imaginary nutrient depletion after 10 years in vegans. Do you have any scientific logic behind it? Any research? Don't give me garbage articles. Explain the nutrients and their metabolizing process and how that would lead to deficiency after 10 years.

Do you even understand that there are people who have been vegan for more than 10 years or is that are conspiracy in your mind?

I already listed the nutrients: Vitamins A, D, K2, B12; EPA, DHA; creatine, carnitine, carnosine, taurine; heme-iron, CLA, CoQ10; cholesterol. Also check out the toxins which veganism does not lack: Phytic acid in grains, nuts and seeds; oxalates in leafy greens; lectins in beans; sugar.

All the years prior to veganism you'd been storing fat-soluble vitamins (shocker) in your fat, and in your liver. Only water-soluble vitamins must be consumed on a daily basis as your body doesn't store them.

I know there are 10-year vegans - my sister is one - I said that those are statistically rare because most don't survive so long on starvation diet and go back to eating animal products.

[PurpleTree]

6 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I'm Indian. Here in India, it's very easy to be vegan! It's very easy to make good Indian food that's vegan.

India has some delicious vegetarian and vegan food for sure. Italy has great vegetarian food too.

[integral]

@PurpleTree Spiral dynamics playlist

@commie

 

[Jaka Pirs Hanzic]

The biggest issue i have towards ending my meat consumption, is that im afraid vegetarian diet would malnourish the body since i enjoy exercise such as calisthenics, running and sports in general.

I've been meaning to research this for a while now, since i am being more and more drawn towards limiting the meat consumption. But like i've said, my hesitation stems from fear of malnutrition.

Does anyone have any knowledge or resources to share in regards to this?

[Village]

1 minute ago, Jaka Pirs Hanzic said:

The biggest issue i have towards ending my meat consumption, is that im afraid vegetarian diet would malnourish the body since i enjoy exercise such as calisthenics, running and sports in general.

I've been meaning to research this for a while now, since i am being more and more drawn towards limiting the meat consumption. But like i've said, my hesitation stems from fear of malnutrition.

Does anyone have any knowledge or resources to share in regards to this?

Read my comments above.

[PurpleTree]

4 minutes ago, Jaka Pirs Hanzic said:

The biggest issue i have towards ending my meat consumption, is that im afraid vegetarian diet would malnourish the body since i enjoy exercise such as calisthenics, running and sports in general.

I've been meaning to research this for a while now, since i am being more and more drawn towards limiting the meat consumption. But like i've said, my hesitation stems from fear of malnutrition.

Does anyone have any knowledge or resources to share in regards to this?

If that's the only issue you can give the vegetarian or vegan diet a try and as soon as you're feeling worse you can go back to meat.

[integral]

@Parththakkar12 this is what digestive problems looks like

https://www.actualized.org/insights/my-health-situation

[DefinitelyNotARobot]

Just now, datamonster said:

Of course, but some people had higher morals than their culture, which is how change can happen. Just like today culture is changing by more and more people reducing their consumption of animal products.

True. But the point is that the morals of most people are centered around their culture. Just because someone was born in the slavery days of America doesn't mean that they were fine with it. There were people who were against owning slaves even back in 1800. But you were, generally speaking, much more likely to be pro-slavery than you are today. Most people today see that slavery was bad, because we learned from the mistakes of our past. The history of a nation is an important part of it's culture and how the culture is shaped. If you look at Germany you'll see that there are a lot of progressive people out there who value cultural acceptance and political correctness. It's part of their culture because they've seen what fascism and authoritarianism can do. They've seen the extremes of racism and national identity.

And that can be applied to the part about animal consumption. We've seen the extremes of stage orange animal farming. We've seen what happens if meat becomes fetishized by so many people. We've seen the culture surrounding meat and the lack of love for animals. The lack of love for our planet and all the other inhabitants that roam the surface of earth. This culture of overt materialism is opening peoples eyes.

And thus culture will change yet again. It will change and it will come with new morals, values, goals and challenges. That is what I meant when I said that morals and culture were the same. You can't expect people to be moral when their culture isn't. People are still animals. They still adapt to their surroundings in order to survive.

Again that isn't true for everybody. But it's true for most people.

Makes you wonder: What will our morals be like in a thousand years? Future humans will probably view us as primitive monkeys that didn't know any better.

11 minutes ago, neutralempty said:

And experiencing the immoral side is even more difficult.

... which is also true. But some people just subscribe to sets of morals because they can't think for themselves, which can be problematic too. I think you need a balance between those extremes.

[Village]

2 minutes ago, datamonster said:

@Village Don't forget that most people in general are not exactly healthy, not just vegans. 

The thing with veganism is that it's not a diet, it's an ethic. Therefore, most vegans don't care about nutrition. They just don't want to support animal abuse. 

I encourage you to distinguish between veganism and eating a whole foods plant based diet, which are two completely different things.

Most people already eat a plant-based diet with some low quality fried meat here and there.

Agriculture kills more animals than any slaughterhouse. Not caring for nutrition means they don't love themselves, hence they'll struggle in loving others too. The role veganism plays here is merely egoistical, it gives one an imaginary moral pedestal through the façade of compassion, while in reality they're hungry and angry people. It's too sad and too funny.

[integral]

@datamonster @neutralempty When you guys did the experiment of eating nothing but meat and salt for a month, how did you feel? 

[integral]

@neutralempty I guess this means it didnt happen. There was no trial and error. No scientific method. A switch to veganism took place at the beginning of your health journey and nothing else was attempted?