Neo Advaita Trap

[zeroISinfinity]

@Dand You are actual Love. What hate? 

Reality is Love. 

Ok Jed got obliterated "opened up". Still want to bark at you, that didn't changed. 

[Nahm]

@Tim R

Shot in the dark here...

If he were to self realize, purification of karma (or adversely / alternatively, a ‘new’ awareness ‘he’s’ carrying a ton of emotional resistance & denying it for the duration of ‘his’ lifetime) follows. Experientially, that’s no ‘small potatoes’ we’re talkin about, that’s ‘his’ life (to ‘him’). It’ll change everything in his entire life, and simultaneously it changes nothing because it’s what was already the case (no self, no lifetime to begin with). From ‘your’ or ‘my’ perspective, it might be a much welcomed perpetual delight of love, relief, release, healing and understanding...from his perspective it might be a total nightmare you’re hinting toward him unpacking. Can you honestly say you are in touch with that suffering he is experiencing, evidenced even by his consideration reality could just as well be Hate? ? Can you really ‘go back that far’ so to speak to actually share his experience / perspective / discord / suffering? I would argue that you can not. You can not unsee, unfeel, this love, and ‘get back there’. Which is why you’re wanting him to ‘know’ this love. So in a way, you’re saying ‘come on over here dude it’s unbelievably awesome!’... and he’s denying (himself) that. 

Anything come to mind, that might come to mind in his shoes, in his life, which he may not be ready to experience the purification of? 

There are countless examples, but to draw out an extreme example for communication, imagine Hitler’s purification of karma compared to a guy who say, basically worked hard at a gas station to provide for his family his whole life. I would imagine that Hitler would respond at least a hundred times in deflection of the truth being shared with him, as not to feel how ‘off the mark’ the actions of his life have been. Again, ?. Whereas gas station guy could ‘hear’ more readily, because he could just continue working as he has been, Hitler’s whole day to day is going to have to completely flip. Every thought, every relationship, every activity of his every day. 

The karma of “maybe I could’ve lived more to my potential, and loved more” is not quite the same as “oh my fucking God I murdered people”. In the ‘final analysis’ of course, there is no difference, but the purification of karma in getting there is quite experientially different. So, it’s possible that beneath the thinking & talking chatter, your friend does ‘hear’, but is not ready to ‘hear’. It’s good to stay mindful that one never actually knows what actual thinking is transpiring in another, or really, to the degree, if it actually is. Also of course, it’s possible I’m completely off. It just came to mind. If this is ‘on’ though, you could see that he is “keeping it up at the thinking level”, so that it does not encroach upon “the feeling level”, or his “my life”. I can appreciate the neo advaita approach-less approach, yet I can also appreciate and feel compassion for the suffering or ignore-ance, or, the complete dismissal of addressing the purification & karma. Jim Newman for example, hysterical, I laugh my head off every time. But if I was listening to him sitting next to Hitler, I might ‘laugh inside’ so to speak, because of understanding. 

[mandyjw]

Well, he could be the other extreme and be buying pieces of toast of eBay and worshipping them cause virgin Mary appeared in them. 

I think that sometimes extremes have to be explored so we can affirm to ourselves that they aren't "it" and we aren't to be found in them. 

[zeroISinfinity]

@Nahm

I love you it's np but I am confused with that text. Could you write in layman terms. Some of us not so educated to understand. My mind has hard time wraping it's head around it. 

2 hours ago, Dand said:

I agree with you but Hate and Love don't contradict each other.

God still relatively hates itself in infinite ways as well.

There's nothing but Love. 

 

[Tim R]

5 hours ago, Dodo said:

You believe others to be unenlightened because of your own story you are projecting.

@Dodo Never said anything along these lines, did I? 

3 hours ago, Dand said:

Hate = Love so your friend wasn't wrong, but then again, neither are you

If you look into why Love = Reality and have the courage to go deeper, you'll realise Hate = Reality as well, that's the nature of nonduality after all.

 

All hate is included by Love, because all hate is. And all that is, is and therefore is Love. Love and Being are literally synonymous. So hate is actually Love and the entire Universe could never be anything else but Love, no matter what happens. It's Love which has no opposite.  

Don't confuse Love for affection / liking. 

I think some of you misunderstood what I was saying - I didn't force anything upon him. Neither did I project anything on him. I just tried to point at the fact that he won't understand anything, if he keeps using his mind as a substitution for experience. 

@Nahm I see... I never thought about something like that... So some people are actually not ready and it's not helpful (at all) to even hint at something like the fact that existence is Love?.. Is it possible to suddenly realize something like that without having purified your Karma? What would happen if this were to happen? 

But yes, it's probably not very wise to talk if nobody wants to listen, or if the listener is not ready yet. My mistake.

Thanks for the many replies <3

Edited October 1, 2020 by Tim R

[mandyjw]

@zeroISinfinity Exorcism. If you have 19 demons you're more likely to deny that demons exist than if you have just 3. 

But demons don't exist, because individuals don't exist but they also do, so it's kinda hard to explain, so yeah. 

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by mandyjw

[Nahm]

42 minutes ago, zeroISinfinity said:

I love you it's np but I am confused with that text. Could you write in layman terms. Some of us not so educated to understand. My mind has hard time wraping it's head around it. 

I love you.    What part?  What specific questions arise? That’d help me clarify. 

23 minutes ago, Tim R said:

So some people are actually not ready and it's not helpful (at all) to even hint at something like the fact that existence is Love?..

Imo the best time for the message is always. Of course, you’re not trying to offend anyone or argue, you’re just sharing the love that you are. ‘Helpful’ is subjectively defined by (in this case) your friend. Yet, who would argue with a statement like “my life, and your life, and this place can use all the love we can realize”. Questions (rather than statements) that come to mind for him might be...“Is there the possibility of an evidence which changes your perspective?”...”If so, what would that evidence be?” Likely, this leads to talking about direct experience. Then at least he has considered this, seeing that it is in his own hands, likely & hopefully in a deeper way which he never has before. 

44 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Is it possible to suddenly realize something like that without having purified your Karma? What would happen if this were to happen? 

Yes, common via psychedelics without proper foundation. What happens following realization is purification. What seems to happen can range from a giant mess of a life and finite mind...to a smoother and more fulfilling series of releases and endless insights.  

44 minutes ago, Tim R said:

But yes, it's probably not very wise to talk if nobody wants to listen, or if the listener is not ready yet. My mistake.

I don’t think it’s a mistake. Love is just crazy. I have a hunch your presence already says the message. The Buddha quote comes to mind, “If someone gives you a gift, which you refuse, to whom does the gift belong?” It works ‘both ways’. (You and friend)

44 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Thanks for the many replies <3

♥️??

[zeroISinfinity]

@Nahm Nah, I get it all. Love ya all, wish you all the best. 

Infinite Love baby, Infinite Love. 

 

[Someone here]

19 hours ago, Tim R said:

@Dodo 

All hate is included by Love, because all hate is. And all that is, is and therefore is Love. Love and Being are literally synonymous. So hate is actually Love and the entire Universe could never be anything else but Love, no matter what happens. It's Love which has no opposite.

 

@Nahm

Yeah so hate is love. Murder is love. Rape is love. Death by cancer is love. Me denying love is love.  This has to he the most meaningless concept then. If you are being raped or suffering immensely what would calling your suffering love help or change? If it doesn't change anything then what's the point of calling it "love"? 

Also I don't follow    "everything is. and hate is. Therefore hate is love". Just what did you do there? 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Someone here

[Tim R]

10 minutes ago, Someone here said:

If you are being raped or suffering immensely what would calling your suffering love help or change? If it doesn't change anything then what's the point of calling it "love"? 

It doesn't help to call these things "suffering" either. 

18 minutes ago, Someone here said:

This has to he the most meaningless concept then.

It is precisely the most meaningful, inherent quality of reality.

You confuse love with Love.  Love includes everything. It can't reject hate or suffering, otherwise it wouldn't be Love.  love is actually not Love, but rather something akin to affection and liking based on what the ego declares to be good. We say "I love this - but not this." So it is tied to condition - that's not Love, Love has no conditions. Therefore of course, love is included by Love. But so are also suffering and hate.  What do you mean when you say "suffering"? Does the universe suffer or the ego? 

Being raped is bad from the ego's point of view. The universe however is selfless(ness). There is no rejection (suffering is the consequence of rejection), because rejection is the same as ego/identification: "I am me and the rest of the world is not me / this is good and this is bad (it ought not to exist) / this is this and not that./ etc. You see?

 

Existence can't deny itself. It can't reject itself. It is utterly selfless acceptance of all that exists, it's Love.

[Someone here]

5 minutes ago, Tim R said:

It doesn't help to call these things "suffering" either. 

It is precisely the most meaningful, inherent quality of reality.

You confuse love with Love.  Love includes everything. It can't reject hate or suffering, otherwise it wouldn't be Love.  love is actually not Love, but rather something akin to affection and liking based on what the ego declares to be good. We say "I love this - but not this." So it is tied to condition - that's not Love, Love has no conditions. Therefore of course, love is included by Love. But so are also suffering and hate.  What do you mean when you say "suffering"? Does the universe suffer or the ego? 

Being raped is bad from the ego's point of view. The universe however is selfless(ness). There is no rejection (suffering is the consequence of rejection), because rejection is the same as ego/identification: "I am me and the rest of the world is not me / this is good and this is bad (it ought not to exist) / this is this and not that./ etc. You see?

 

Existence can't deny itself. It can't reject itself. It is utterly selfless acceptance of all that exists, it's Love.

This is all your own projection onto being. 

If we substitute the word Love with Being would it make any difference in terms of the actuality of what is being pointed at?. Actually it would because everyone can recognize this being situation that's happening here. 

From the perspective of the ego.. There must be good and bad.. If you stop seeing bad you will die.. Imagine if you stop seeing death as bad.. Why should you live then?. From the POV of the universe itself its not that ITS ALL GOOD. The universe doesn't know good or bad. There is no such thing as good or bad except inside your skull (thoughts).  The universe doesn't reject or accept itself. Again these are your human qualities being projected into impersonal beingness. From the view point of being.. Everything is just what it is. It's not love it's not  good its not bad it's not anything . But that's only available when you recognize yourself as being itself. If you recognize yourself as a person which you do.. As a poor little Me that needs to survive in the world.. Then you know love and hate.. Good and bad. From your pov it will never be the case.. As in your living perspective...that all is love(because if all is love then you love death then why should life be preferred from death)? .. And if you do recognize yourself as beingness itself there is no longer anything to say about yourself (love or not love) because you just are the ultimate reality as you are and that's it. 

[Tim R]

Yup, you got it perfectly right.

 

Except when you say love or acceptance - because you are not yet talking about actual Love or Acceptance.

[Dodo]

23 hours ago, Tim R said:

@Dodo Never said anything along these lines, did I? 

All hate is included by Love, because all hate is. And all that is, is and therefore is Love. Love and Being are literally synonymous. So hate is actually Love and the entire Universe could never be anything else but Love, no matter what happens. It's Love which has no opposite.  

Don't confuse Love for affection / liking. 

I think some of you misunderstood what I was saying - I didn't force anything upon him. Neither did I project anything on him. I just tried to point at the fact that he won't understand anything, if he keeps using his mind as a substitution for experience. 

@Nahm I see... I never thought about something like that... So some people are actually not ready and it's not helpful (at all) to even hint at something like the fact that existence is Love?.. Is it possible to suddenly realize something like that without having purified your Karma? What would happen if this were to happen? 

But yes, it's probably not very wise to talk if nobody wants to listen, or if the listener is not ready yet. My mistake.

Thanks for the many replies <3

 

 

Your friend's theory that Hate could also be the ultimate nature of reality also IS. Why are you not loving that? Because its incorrect? It might be incorrect, but it IS. Love it or be hypocritical. But if you're hypocritical, I guess you love that also, cause it also just is. But that takes away the higher ground you stand on when making the statement all is Love. Because what are you really against here? What you are against must be Love if all is Love. 

gg wp

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

This is all your own projection onto being. 

If we substitute the word Love with Being would it make any difference in terms of the actuality of what is being pointed at?. Actually it would because everyone can recognize this being situation that's happening here. 

From the perspective of the ego.. There must be good and bad.. If you stop seeing bad you will die.. Imagine if you stop seeing death as bad.. Why should you live then?. From the POV of the universe itself its not that ITS ALL GOOD. The universe doesn't know good or bad. There is no such thing as good or bad except inside your skull (thoughts).  The universe doesn't reject or accept itself. Again these are your human qualities being projected into impersonal beingness. From the view point of being.. Everything is just what it is. It's not love it's not  good its not bad it's not anything . But that's only available when you recognize yourself as being itself. If you recognize yourself as a person which you do.. As a poor little Me that needs to survive in the world.. Then you know love and hate.. Good and bad. From your pov it will never be the case.. As in your living perspective...that all is love(because if all is love then you love death then why should life be preferred from death)? .. And if you do recognize yourself as beingness itself there is no longer anything to say about yourself (love or not love) because you just are the ultimate reality as you are and that's it. 

Yes there is something here which has come to mind before... I mean we dont want to do to others what we dont wish done to us... When we see they are the same... 

But I've thought about many times what stops someone from raping you and at the same time by the nonduality "rule" this is all Love. So the one who rapes and the one who gets raped might not be real outside of time, but within the time story there definitely are some actions and events which are not love and we know what those are - we can feel it-  its our morality from within.... 

So when we talk about concepts that point outside of time like the PEACE THAT PASSETH understanding and the LOVE BEYOND DUALITIES, we cannot really merge those with events that are in time and say "Everything here in time is love and you can just do anything and its luv dunn worry bro"... Because in stories there are always polarities and dualities. Good and bad....  It's the nature of experience/story to have polarities and the nature of the empty self to have no polarity and duality. Lets not mix up the two too much

 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Dodo

[Mu_]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:16 PM, Tim R said:

A very good friend of mine has fallen into the rationalistic sort of "there's nothing to understand"-Neo-Advaita Trap... He thinks that he has understood, but as we start to engage in a discussion, it very quickly becomes obvious, that he hasn't. When Buddhists say "there's nothing to understand" he thinks that this is to be understood literally - in the sense of "rational understanding". And that's right, of course there's nothing to understand (with the mind!!), but only though direct experience. 

Now, today I tried to explain to him why existence literally is love, as I came to understand a week or two ago. Of course I know that there isn't really any point in trying to explain this, but I just wanted to hint at it. He then tried to explain to me how it could be the other way round - hate being the absolute "quality" of reality (as you will find out rather quickly, this can't be).

As much as I love him, concerning this (and Non-duality as a whole), he is deluded and hasn't yet understood/experienced, what is actually meant. 

How to get him on the right track? How to disperse his delusions? It actually concerns me a bit, because it's this toxic, sort of unpleasant (Hardcore-) Neo-Advaita...

See how he reacts to this.  Isn't it true that he is understanding "there is nothing to understand" and based upon this understanding he's going about with this new belief system, way of thinking and way of life?   Really doing "there is nothing to understand" so to say, is not even doing or understanding "there is nothing to understand", its not a Way in which someone figures out how to do it but a Way in which is unfolding already.