Resources For INTP's

[lmfao]

15 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

So if you have 5 second to type someone, you decide to try to work out their 8 functions?  lol.

If I type someone go off of vibe and guessing. These things are like archetypes with flavours. Once you taste a certain flavour you can see it in others. But the exact categories themselves in mbti arent something worth trying to make 100% true with a verbal system. 

Conversations about trying to pin someone to an exact type, I used to do that but not anymore. It would be mental masturbation and strain for no reason. I only do it if someone asks me to or as a whim. 

The verbal salad I unloaded on you was a program I tapped into, because the entire perspective was me trying to describe what I think the definitions should be, even though I never use such systems anymore and think there's no point in using such systems. But if you wish to use such systems, I think that's how they should be. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by lmfao

[nitramadas]

22 minutes ago, lmfao said:

I used to do that but not anymore. It would be mental masturbation

Would you say engaging the intellect is "mental masturbation"?  If you're alive, you're doing something.  Enjoying the intellect is no less valid of an activity than.. playing video games?  making money?  learning?  conversations?  having fun?  It's all the same.  Hence why I said I suspect you may be some kind of "healthy Orange".  Not necessarily interested in success that much, perhaps feeling successful enough and having a sense of security.  The above quote and your previous post, but mostly the INTJ / Orange vibe are what make me suspect this.  Again, I could totally be wrong.

 

Quote

even though I never use such systems anymore and think there's no point in using such systems. But if you wish to use such systems, I think that's how they should be. 

The only reason you'd lose interest is if you've gone past Yellow, which I'd think is unlikely.  Unless.. you've never truly delved into the theoretical and abstract, in which case you'd be going into Green.  INTx types are more difficult as the people who feel the need to develop an intellect typically do so so to distance themselves from emotion or boredom.  This distance hides who they really are.  At Green they tend to start losing this distance/mask, but you still seem to have it.  I can usually tell when someone's gone past the Green barrier, hence my concern..

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, nitramadas said:

It's like INTP is the natural evolution of the INTJ.  But I'm sure absolutely no one else sees this connection..

Is it that Ne is more multi-perspectival while Ni is more closeminded? If not, please elaborate?

[lmfao]

@nitramadas Alright, there's communication mismatch going on here. I've only shown you a small part of the web in my mind, and now you're curious about more but it takes forever to unfold it all. I say that not in an arrogant tone, but am just lamenting that whenever I type things like this I end up having to unpack a lot.

So to clarify things. intp and intj have a lot of similarities. But also a lot of differences. 

Viewing XXXX as 4 scales works roughly and well enough for a newbie. What I was going after isn't you saying intp and and intj have similarities, but I'm stating how the system should work at a ground zero level.

Stating things like "xxxJ types tend be more organised and conscientious" work, but they are secondary things from how it is definitionally. xxxJ means your dominant perceiving function is introverted and your dominant decision making function is extroverted.

Is describing xxxJ types as conscientious a good heuristic? Yes. But it isn't the same thing. And I state these exact things about the system because that's how I see the starting point and foundation to be. You're very right to state how there are similarities between all xxTx for example. But I'm laying things out definitionally. Because I feel that if someone is a genuine student of these things, there's a right and a wrong way to do it. 

In summary, what I've been on a tirade against is a semantic issue where people define mbti definitionally as 4 scales from 0 to 100. And they end up conflating the system with Big Five. 

 

Prior to mbti in the chain of things epistomologically is this. Sensing, intuition, feeling, thinking, these things can be thought of individually. And there are introverted and extroverted expressions of them. As jung described. 

And mbti is a further imposition and set of assumptions on how those elements are structured.

---

Look man, my mind is a massive tornado of things with this all, I could talk forever. It would take too long. 

I'm not trying to be emo or edgy, but the only reason you perceive me as orange is that you've only seen one side of me, and my mind is a lateral mess that takes forever to verbally unweave because I have a lot of things at once in my mind which I can't all communicate immediately. And putting my thought forms into words takes a long time and could go on forever. English and writing was always my weakest subject. 

I have a good ability to talk about all these semantic details but it brings me little pleasure at times. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by lmfao

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, nitramadas said:

I wonder if you really skipped Green or if it's just expressed differently in INTPs.  A Green INTP is still gonna be introverted and theoretical.

I could totally see why that is. I tend to lean towards INFP over INTP (Ne = Fi > Ti), and I think had no problems embracing the more obvious aspects of Green (feeling stuff). I still had this weird mental block from embracing it intellectually some years ago. It might be because I've always placed high value on thinking, objectivity and logic while trying to deny my feeling side (due to culture, upbringing), which tends to pull you back into small-minded rationalism.

I was at that point at the very cusp of the alt-right pipeline (Thunderf00t, Sargon of Akkad, Atheism Is Unstoppable, Sam Harris, not quite Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro) which might've certainly contributed to that block. When I look back at that period, I always remember having an underlying feeling that the "SJWs" actually had their heart in the right place and that maybe I should've extended the courtesy of trying to see it from their perspective, but you know how echo-chambers work (it's hard to follow up on that intuition).

Edited November 20, 2020 by Carl-Richard

[lmfao]

30 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is it that Ne is more multi-perspectival while Ni is more closeminded? If not, please elaborate?

Brother, watch the video I linked in your other thread for understanding ne vs ni 

[Carl-Richard]

41 minutes ago, lmfao said:

Brother, watch the video I linked in your other thread for understanding ne vs ni 

I did.

[integral]

5 hours ago, nitramadas said:

As an INTP.. this is a mess.  

 

Oh.. and, since I'm here.  Is there a correlation between INTP and Yellow?

It's like INTP is the natural evolution of the INTJ.  But I'm sure absolutely no one else sees this connection..

(Yeah, plenty of exception e.g. Andrew Yang, but even then, being driven for anything is almost always gonna be immature)

We all have our strengths and weakness. Your imposing your values on to MBTI, judging a type based on how much it reflects what you think is important cognitively. 

Why do INTPs score highest on iq tests? Because the IQ test was designed by INTPs for INTPs. They narrowed down all lines of development to the ones they think are most important and created a test for it. So of course INTPs score highest, there being tested on there exact strengths and non of there weaknesses. We could make a test that only considered the lines of development that are INTP weaknesses and INTPs would score the worst and ESFJ would score the best. 

In short your INTP biased and anything that is not INTP is obviously less evolved. lmao

Edited November 20, 2020 by integral

[Hello from Russia]

1 hour ago, integral said:

We all have our strengths and weakness. Your imposing your values on to MBTI, judging a type based on how much it reflects what you think is important cognitively. 

Why do INTPs score highest on iq tests? Because the IQ test was designed by INTPs for INTPs. They narrowed down all lines of development to the ones they think are most important and created a test for it. So of course INTPs score highest, there being tested on there exact strengths and non of there weaknesses. We could make a test that only considered the lines of development that are INTP weaknesses and INTPs would score the worst and ESFJ would score the best. 

In short your INTP biased and anything that is not INTP is obviously less evolved. lmao

What? IQ test was designed by and for Estj/Istj people which is like the mainstream type that our education system pushes. How is IQ about intp?

[integral]

@Hello from Russia

Ive given IQ tests to some very immature/underdeveloped INTPs and they performed insanely well, the kind of thinking done in IQ tests is perfectly tailored to them. There weaknesses are not tested and ignored. 

The IQ test is really an INTP test, how much of an INTP are you? lol ESFJ is the least INTP like. 

If it was designed by XSTJ types they would be on the top of the list. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by integral

[Hello from Russia]

3 hours ago, integral said:

@Hello from Russia

Ive given IQ tests to some very immature/underdeveloped INTPs and they performed insanely well, the kind of thinking done in IQ tests is perfectly tailored to them. There weaknesses are not tested and ignored. 

The IQ test is really an INTP test, how much of an INTP are you? lol ESFJ is the least INTP like. 

If it was designed by XSTJ types they would be on the top of the list. 

@integral Very interesting stuff, thank you for sharing. Do you have any info on what age were the participants of that thing?

[nitramadas]

10 hours ago, lmfao said:

@nitramadas I'm not trying to be emo or edgy, but the only reason you perceive me as orange is that you've only seen one side of me, and my mind is a lateral mess that takes forever to verbally unweave because I have a lot of things at once in my mind which I can't all communicate immediately. And putting my thought forms into words takes a long time and could go on forever. English and writing was always my weakest subject. 

I'm sure you may be right.  Your writing style makes me uncertain of anything about you.  You seem to be able to write a lot, but it's very messy and overly verbose.

 

8 hours ago, integral said:

We all have our strengths and weakness. Your imposing your values on to MBTI, judging a type based on how much it reflects what you think is important cognitively. 

..

In short your INTP biased and anything that is not INTP is obviously less evolved. lmao

Not at all.  Have you seen Leo's Yellow video?  It's almost like a description of a healthy INTP.

• Yellow is individualistic and enjoys modelling/theorising (Ixxx).
• Yellow sees the big picture and sees the connections between seemingly unrelated things (xNxx).
• Yellow is logical and wants the best possible outcome, a "win-win-win" if possible. Also models/theories (xxTx).
• Yellow sees value in all perspectives and doesn't think there's one correct way of doing things (xxxP).

 

8 hours ago, integral said:

Why do INTPs score highest on iq tests? Because the IQ test was designed by INTPs for INTPs. They narrowed down all lines of development to the ones they think are most important and created a test for it. So of course INTPs score highest, there being tested on there exact strengths and non of there weaknesses. We could make a test that only considered the lines of development that are INTP weaknesses and INTPs would score the worst and ESFJ would score the best. 

Never knew that.  Though, in specific applications, I'd imagine INTJs may perform better.  INTJs tend to be more focused and goal driven, though "overall" I'd think INTPs have the edge due to greater open-mindedness / creativity / curiosity.

[integral]

54 minutes ago, nitramadas said:

Not at all.  Have you seen Leo's Yellow video?  It's almost like a description of a healthy INTP.

• Yellow is individualistic and enjoys modelling/theorising (Ixxx).
• Yellow sees the big picture and sees the connections between seemingly unrelated things (xNxx).
• Yellow is logical and wants the best possible outcome, a "win-win-win" if possible. Also models/theories (xxTx).
• Yellow sees value in all perspectives and doesn't think there's one correct way of doing things (xxxP).

Was referring more to the part where INTJs evolve into INTPs lol. 

Many INTPs are orange, its possible you find yellow easy and are over generalizing to the rest. Its also important to remember that each line of development can be at a different stage. 

It makes sense that some types have an easier time escaping cultures center of gravity. Types like ESFP and ESFJ have about 0 chance of being exposed to or discover spiral dynamics or integral theory on there own and lack the XNXX to explore the abstract on there own. But if there culture was center yellow they would easily also be yellow. Every type. There are many flavours of yellow and any type can be at any stage.

INTP have weaknesses like relationships, where they tend to be stuck at orange/green or first tier. They want kids... do you want kids?

I would put wanting kids a first tier value most of the time. Its possible to wants kids at tier 2 but its a stretch... like serving cosmic consciousness in some big picture way. Not serving the ego. Its also possible to not want kids for orange reasons... 

Edited November 20, 2020 by integral

[integral]

1 hour ago, nitramadas said:

Never knew that.  Though, in specific applications, I'd imagine INTJs may perform better.  INTJs tend to be more focused and goal driven, though "overall" I'd think INTPs have the edge due to greater open-mindedness / creativity / curiosity.

This is INTP biased. INTJ are/can be ruthlessly open minded. Have you ever debated orange INTP??? forget it... these are traits of yellow not INTP. 

Edited November 20, 2020 by integral

[Username]

@integral I think that development depends on center of gravity of society. If an orange INTP is in an orange social group it will reinforce their orangeness. If an INTP is in green social circles he/she will be forced to integrate green. However green is not a very comfortable stage for INTPs so they will be prone to jumping faster into yellow.

Feelers may have easier time evolving into green but then they will not be forced to evolve further. I suppose it might be easier for thinkers to evolve faster because thinking has less inertia than feelings.

[integral]

14 minutes ago, Username said:

If an INTP is in green social circles he/she will be forced to integrate green. However green is not a very comfortable stage for INTPs so they will be prone to jumping faster into yellow.

hmm not sure about this one, green isnt all about lovy dovyness, alot of high academia, PHD level is green, very rarely do we see yellow. So there are plenty of green INTP. I dont see how these INTP will ever move into yellow. There is no push, its not as uncomfortable as it could be. Its possible you have some green shadow? Making INTPs appear uncomfortable at green. 

If we look at leos development over the years he definitely moved through green and was green at some lines of development, he might still have some percentage of green today. @Leo Gura is this accurate? 

 

Edited November 20, 2020 by integral

[Username]

@integral Most people will never evolve into yellow. I'm speaking about exceptions.

Most of the time to ever evolve into yellow you have to be green early in life. If you are adult and you are stuck in first tier you will be stuck there for a loong time. I doubt that it's possible for teen INTP to fully integrate green - most of them are antisocial Enneagram 5 types. Blue and orange are easier stages to embody for INTPs, if they have some green it's possible to transition into yellow. Other types (especially feelers) may be stuck in green longer. My guess is that if you are older that 25 years old and still in first tier, it will be much harder for you to evolve further.

I'm not saying that all INTPs will be yellow but there might be higher percentages for this type. The issue is I don't really have INTP friends. I know four yellow INTJs and met few ENFPs with some yellow traits.

[integral]

@Username That makes sense. 4 yellow INTJ??? where did you find them? Its already rare to find INTJ in the wild but for them also to be yellow.... 

[nitramadas]

2 hours ago, integral said:

This is INTP biased. INTJ are/can be ruthlessly open minded. Have you ever debated orange INTP??? forget it... these are traits of yellow not INTP. 

"INTJ are/can be ruthlessly open minded" ..in search of solution to a problem.  INTPs don't just stop when they've solved the problem, they remain open minded even after fully completing the task.  Just for the fun of it.  

 

2 hours ago, integral said:

Was referring more to the part where INTJs evolve into INTPs lol. 

If we say that INTP = perfect example of Yellow (if healthy).  

And that INTJ is like INTP, but more judging and serious.

What happens when an Orange INTJ turns Green, and then Yellow?  Do they continue to judge others the same way?  Do they stay as focused on becoming successful?  What I was saying is that by becoming more Yellow, they tend to also become more INTP.

 

2 hours ago, integral said:

Many INTPs are orange, its possible you find yellow easy and are over generalizing to the rest

I don't know any Orange INTPs.

 

2 hours ago, integral said:

important to remember that each line of development can be at a different stage. 

Ummm, there's some truth to that, but you still fall into one main stage.  

 

 

2 hours ago, integral said:

INTP have weaknesses like relationships, where they tend to be stuck at orange/green or first tier. They want kids... do you want kids?

I don't think it's that they are "weaker at relationships" or lower stage at relationships.  An intellectually inclined Yellow may have less skill at a relationship with a Green than someone at Green.  If there are more Greens than Yellows, the Yellow will be "worse" at relationships.  It's relative.  It's best to figure the stage, and then see how the stage handles each thing, rather than coming up with lots of stages.  Though I do hope to see a 3D SD model one day.  I'm slowly working on one.

Ehm.. I think wanting kids is mostly a Blue & Green thing.  I've never wanted kids, though don't feel strongly about that either way, depends on the coming 20 years.

 

 

2 hours ago, integral said:

I would put wanting kids a first tier value most of the time. Its possible to wants kids at tier 2 but its a stretch... like serving cosmic consciousness in some big picture way. Not serving the ego. Its also possible to not want kids for orange reasons... 

lol, it's nothing about servitude or doing "the right thing" or anything like that.  Once you've been Green, you just love existence and want to share it.  It's just creating more love in the world.  

[nitramadas]

1 hour ago, Username said:

I know four yellow INTJs and met few ENFPs with some yellow traits.

u wot m8

 

*pictures a judgemental, narrow-minded, materialistic ascended master*

Edited November 21, 2020 by nitramadas