What is the role of suffering in spirituality?

[Mongu9719]

Why is the concept of suffering so central to spiritual teachings. People say that suffering can lead to enlightenment which allows to escape suffering. This is a good example of a strange loop. The further you flee from suffering the more you suffer. This is an example of paradox. Are there any other aspects of suffering that should be discussed. I would like people’s thoughts on this issue.

[Malken]

They're so central because spiritual teachings are humanity's main coping mechanism. 

The type of suffering that leads to enlightenment is somebody who is super depressed/suicidal eventually the self has had enough and enlightens/disappears.

The second type of suffering is deliberate as in, purposeful purification of your heart. Deep self awareness/self questioning.

[Nahm]

@Mongu9719

It’s the opposite. Not escaping anything, seeing exactly what it is, understanding it, and no longer doing it. 

The last thing you’d want to do is start believing suffering is a strange loop. 

The is the ox justifying itself. 

[zeroISinfinity]

Ok understood Reiki but I do not understand tango. Can't go corona. Tango feels better (such a lie, you are just shy of reiki master, that's not true, ok it is ) so go there. 

Take my healing hand and dance with me. (oh I see what you've done, yeah kinda I have some sneaky wisdom I guess) 

See no suffering possible. 

Edited March 19, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[TheGreekSeeker]

@Nahm can you define the ox? 

[Nahm]

@TheGreekSeeker Give it a google.  Share what ya find here. 

[pluto]

Echkart Tolle was asked: Is suffering really necessary?

Yes and No.

If you had no suffered, there would be no depth to you as a human being, no humility, no compassion. You would not be reading this now. Suffering cracks open the shell of the ego, and then comes a point when it has served its purpose. Suffering is necessary until you realize it is unnecessary.

 

 

[TheGreekSeeker]

@Nahm the Ox literally is a bull. A bull is a wild animal, hardly tamed. The ten ox herding pictures represent the path toward Enlightenment of a zen master and then his descendance back to society and the human world. I don't understand what you mean with the phrase you often say "dont entertain the ox" . Does the ox represent enlightment, or the ego, or the spiritual ego, or the spiritual path? The zen master searches for the ox, that meaning he wants to reach it, so we talk about Enlightenment, ascendance of the ego, so why would I not want to entertain the ox? You mean not allow the fear of the other side of the river scare the ego? Since the capturing of the ox demands overcoming the fear.

Edited March 19, 2020 by TheGreekSeeker

[Forestluv]

@Mongu9719 What if enlightenment includes suffering?

[DrewNows]

suffering is buffering 

some software programs are more susceptible to problems. Thankfully we aren’t just the software, reprogramming happens  

 

Edited March 19, 2020 by DrewNows

[zeroISinfinity]

What suffering just saw  hippie chick observing trees in park in midts of empty city. So nostalgic so nostalgic for suffering. Will scream why? All you man you are all of it Infinite Love thing. Not even in reverse is possible now.Asked for reiki master not this. When I ask for hippie I get ordinary blondine. I mean c'mon God. 

So nostalgic. ?

Never unlock this thing ❤️ lesson learned. 

Entire thing is epic joke.Endless joke. 

Ok write on holon. Love hippie things love love stuff love all good people. 

(4 points for abuse, making love with ME don't know anything else) 

Edited March 19, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[Nahm]

@TheGreekSeeker Nice. At this point, I’d say it’s the mind. ‘Spotting’ it, is to initially  ‘realize’ there is something more to reality, to life. Something unseen & unheard, but there is something more. Then there is ‘discovering’ awareness in the direct sense, and that awareness is aware of the finite mind, which is the beginning of the ‘wrestling’. That could look like equanimity, then ego backlash, etc, for a while. 

It could also be said that there is another ‘spotting’, and that is that the finite mind, or ego, is the ‘source of suffering’. (That it is not in or of the world - in the sense it could be credited to circumstances and others, but my own)

[TheGreekSeeker]

@Nahm so the Ox-mind (different than Mind with capital M) is the collision between infinite Awareness and finite ego/mind and the identification with the former. So the distancing of 'you' from your destructive lesser 'you' is the taiming of the ox, and the trusting and listening to that finite mind is the source of unhappiness and misery (entertaining the ox). Basically you dont listen to any mind (wisdom), because you are just being held at gun point from your emotions/thoughts stories and you can't win that battle, unless you realize that there was never a threat to begin with.

Edited March 19, 2020 by TheGreekSeeker

[Nahm]

@TheGreekSeeker

Yes, but not a collision of two, Mind appearing as such, that the assumption is there is the second, “mind”. Mind assumes. A neat little way to ‘see’ this, is to make a fist with your left hand and cover it with your right hand. Now remove the left hand. The remaining right hand implies there is something in the center, but there is Mind (Nothing). It is Mind which wrestles, as it forgot itself (aka “birth”). 

Also, there is no source of unhappiness and misery. This would be like covering a flashlight, and saying there is a source of darkness. It is only the forgetting which leads to the implication of any duality, whatever duality as a word might be applied to. 

The ‘can’t win the battle’ & ‘there never was one’, yes indeed. Very nice. 

(The explainations seem a bit different, as I am trying to ‘speak to’ your question while mindfully respecting the courage of the op, in making the thread)

[zeroISinfinity]

Mind=Awareness=Now=Unlimited Being=Real you, no self,God,Infinite Consciousness, Soul. 

Can feel you finally ok with it. Hippie chick and a dog. That dog has to get a medal that's for sure. Mundane=Infinite Intelligence 

Edited March 19, 2020 by zeroISinfinity

[TheGreekSeeker]

@Mongu9719 

@Nahm

As an attempt to answer to the OP and you, I would argue that only a Mind which has forgotten falsely has the conviction that suffering will solve anything or bring joy, although there are two different aspects of suffering. Destructive suffering as a road which leads to alienation from source, and consious/constructive suffering as a way of building faith, ethic, respect, as in cold showers, diet, exercise etc. The latter offers spiritual gifts, and is of great importance. Of course, we must not forget that if you are passionate about something, you don't see it as work, as tiring, so as something which needs conscious suffering to be done, but in some cases you need to learn to dance in the rain and love it.

Edited March 19, 2020 by TheGreekSeeker

[Nahm]

@TheGreekSeeker Mind can forget itself, as it does, but to “suffer for gain” is going well beyond forgetting. It is the adding of a narrative which is not resonating, with Mind. It implies something is wrong with Mind, and suffering must occur to ‘fix’ Mind. Mind simply does not suffer, does not experience suffering, does not know what suffering is. Mind is too busy loving Itself. That’s really it’s gig.

[TheGreekSeeker]

@Nahm So that concludes that in birth, there is not only a self created (separation), but also a narrative, because if you simply had a self it would not identify with anything so it would be instant Mind. But, thinking of animals, aren't they just so disconnected from infinite love,creation and their godly nature? Although they do not have a narrative as we humans do, they do not get the de facto state of Godliness.

[zeroISinfinity]

@Nahm Love Reality=Love MYSELF  that means that? 

Just curious nothing to it. I really do not care about insights, non duality anymore it's ok to be no self. 

@TheGreekSeeker Other animals people this forum all you. Wake up.If you are MIND=Actuality what are you NOW? 

[Nahm]

@TheGreekSeeker

There’s no separation, which is ‘why’ the “identity” is created. Identity is created in-directly, not directly. Like “oh, well, I’m not a tree”. You are a tree, but you forgot ‘who’ you are. In the ‘instant Mind’ scenario, there’d be no experience / creation.  Animals are of the opposite case, they are entirely ‘connected’. The sneakery of thought is such that we often miss that claims on behalf of the experience as an animal, is nothing more than a ‘human’ projection. Humans and animals are not the same in this way. Animals are what you’re calling the de facto state of Godliness. There’s no (in the spiritual sense) “devil” in the animal kingdom. If there was though, it’d be the cuckoo bird.