Any spiritual teachers other than Leo who advocates for use of psychedelics?

[4201]

 Eckhart Tolle in his book "A new earth" puts all drugs (including alcohol) in a bag stating that they can bring the joy the Being at the cost of unconsciousness.

Sadhguru generalizes and compares them to steroids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpJP21PHLwI My impression is that he seems quite pissed at the question. He then proceeds to talk about legalization for the rest of the video.

Alan Watts said "If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen."

I cannot find a statement from Peter Ralston.

I love listening to John Butler on youtube, he seems quite awaken after his 60 years of meditation. I wouldn't picture him taking any psychedelics.

 

Do you have any examples of psychedelic awaken teacher out there other than Leo?

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by 4201

[Forestluv]

@4201 You are citing spiritual teachers that have no psychedelic experience. Of course they won’t advocate for psychedelics, since that wasn’t their path. 

And awakened beings are not just people that lead retreats, ashrams and give talks with a vase of flowers by their side. There are plenty of awakened beings that do not lead conspicuous lives, especially about their psychedelic use. 

There are awakened beings that have used psychedelics as part of their path. People like Leo, Martin Ball, Lisa Cairns, Ananta Kranti - and people on this forum. As well, go travel through Peru. I met dozens of awakened being engaging in Ayahuasca ceremonies. And native Americans have been using psychedelics for mysticism for centuries. 

Yet other awakened beings like Ram Dass didn’t resonate with psychedelics. Noone can give you a 100% guarantee of their effectiveness or ineffectiveness.  On a scale of 1-10, perhaps the value of psychedelics for you would be 2, or maybe an 8. The only way to find out is try it for yourself through direct experimentation.  

At a personal level, I don’t resonate with anyone that is 100% pro-psychedelics as the one and only cure all or anyone that is 100% anti-psychedelics. Both are immature, ignorant positions contracted into partial truths. 

[Raptorsin7]

@4201 I watched that Sadguru video. He is so off on psychedelics. His perspective on the substances is a joke. You can literally apply his logic to any spiritual practice, and you'd end up with no practices lol.

Anyone who is dismisses psychedelics like that without any serious thought is a joke imo. The drugs have so much value if you use them with wisdom. 

[4201]

29 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@4201 You are citing spiritual teachers that have no psychedelic experience. Of course they won’t advocate for psychedelics, since that wasn’t their path. 

And awakened beings are not just people that lead retreats, ashrams and give talks with a vase of flowers by their side. There are plenty of awakened beings that do not lead conspicuous lives, especially about their psychedelic use. 

There are awakened beings that have used psychedelics as part of their path. People like Leo, Martin Ball, Lisa Cairns, Ananta Kranti - and people on this forum. As well, go travel through Peru. I met dozens of awakened being engaging in Ayahuasca ceremonies. And native Americans have been using psychedelics for mysticism for centuries. 

Yet other awakened beings like Ram Dass didn’t resonate with psychedelics. Noone can give you a 100% guarantee of their effectiveness or ineffectiveness.  On a scale of 1-10, perhaps the value of psychedelics for you would be 2, or maybe an 8. The only way to find out is try it for yourself through direct experimentation.  

At a personal level, I don’t trust anyone that is 100% pro-psychedelics as the one and only cure all or anyone that is 100% anti-psychedelics. Both are immature, ignorant positions contracted into partial truths. 

Thanks for the enumeration, this is what I was looking for.

There's no doubt that I'm (ego) a big fan of psychedelics, yet I've fallen into many traps during my first approach to them and now I'm pretty much constantly thinking about them although I've been sober for a month and a half. Perhaps I'm not addicted to them but I'm at least addicted to thinking about them. I'd just like to find resourcess (readings, videos, etc.) which could help me in these issues and that would discuss the different pitfalls of psychedelic awakening.

I see now that giving a list of spiritual teachers who do not advocate for them might be seen as pushing an agenda from my part. This wasn't my true intention, this is just a bunch of names, some of which I consume resources from, which are helping me but offer no help whatsoever in the usage of psychedelics.

I'll check out the books of the 3 names you gave me though, thanks.

Edited February 16, 2020 by 4201

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, 4201 said:

I'd just like to find resourcess (readings, videos, etc.) which could help me in these issues and that would discuss the different pitfalls of psychedelic awakening. 

Looks like I misunderstood your intention. I thought you were asking for proof from awakened teachers that psychedelics are effective. 

I don’t know of any teachers, other than Leo, that provide guidance on how to use psychedelics effectively on a spiritual path. It seems more like hundreds of scattered trip reports across the internet. 

I think in the future there will be more teachers that specifically teach psychedelic methods - similar to how many teachers today that give  guidance on meditation methods. 

The people I listed have used psychedelics on their path, yet don’t talk much about it or give best usage instructions. 

[4201]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Looks like I misunderstood your intentions. I thought you were asking for proof from awakened teachers that psychedelics are effective. 

I don’t know if any teachers that provide a guide on how to use psychedelics effectively on a spiritual path. It seems more like hundreds of scattered trip reports across the internet. 

I think in the future there will be more teachers that specifically teach psychedelic methods - similar to how many teachers that give  guidance in meditation methods. 

The people I listed have used psychedelics on their path, yet don’t talk much about it or give best usage instructions. 

Martin Ball seems to have a bunch of books http://orobai.tripod.com/martinball/nonfiction.html Reviews are not agreeing with each other. I'll have a look at them myself

[Derek White]

@4201 Sadhguru is a bit of a hypocrite and not being transparent on this topic. Probably due to social reasons. There is a video of him drinking cobra venom...

In one article he says, “Consumption of mercury is very much a part of yogic practice”, and “In the South, we have temples where the idol is made of nine deadly poisons. They are called navapashanas. A cocktail of poisons together become very healing and medicinal in nature. It is a very deep science of how to convert visha into amrita – of making a cocktail of poisons, which would instantly kill you, but instead it nourishes you. People consume the water that runs off these idols and it is very healing. But slowly the deity wears out. Generally their lifespan could be anywhere between hundred and fifty to two hundred years depending upon the size. Slowly they lose their shape and form because every day as water falls on it, it wears out and people are drinking it up, taking the Divine in.”

This is the article: https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/sadhguru/mystic/rasa-vaidya

It is very common to see yogis in India smoke marijuana or any other drug. Drugs are used in many Indian traditions. There was a video where Sadhguru was talking about how he can give people a drink that could enlighten them or kill them (upon dying they would be enlightened), but I can’t find it now. Regardless, the use “Amrit” or “Amrita” for spirituality is well known in India which Sadhguru agrees. So if we can use mercury,  nine-poisons, lingams, and occult practice, why can’t we use other chemicals?

Here are some other articles by him: https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/wisdom/article/ayahuasca-parasitic-purging (On ayahuasca)

https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/wisdom/article/drugs-and-the-spiritual-path-possibility-or-pitfall (In this one he clearly says it is a possibility to use drugs to awaken)

”So drugs are the lowest possibility, but still a possibility.” - Sadhguru

In short, he is mostly talking about recreational drug use. He is very tight lipped about using them for awakening.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Derek White

[4201]

45 minutes ago, Derek White said:

@4201 Sadhguru is a bit of a hypocrite and not being transparent on this topic. Probably due to social reasons. There is a video of him drinking cobra venom...

In one article he says, “Consumption of mercury is very much a part of yogic practice”, and “In the South, we have temples where the idol is made of nine deadly poisons. They are called navapashanas. A cocktail of poisons together become very healing and medicinal in nature. It is a very deep science of how to convert visha into amrita – of making a cocktail of poisons, which would instantly kill you, but instead it nourishes you. People consume the water that runs off these idols and it is very healing. But slowly the deity wears out. Generally their lifespan could be anywhere between hundred and fifty to two hundred years depending upon the size. Slowly they lose their shape and form because every day as water falls on it, it wears out and people are drinking it up, taking the Divine in.”

This is the article: https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/sadhguru/mystic/rasa-vaidya

It is very common to see yogis in India smoke marijuana or any other drug. Drugs are used in many Indian traditions. There was a video where Sadhguru was talking about how he can give people a drink that could enlighten them or kill them (upon dying they would be enlightened), but I can’t find it now. Regardless, the use “Amrit” or “Amrita” for spirituality is well known in India which Sadhguru agrees. So if we can use mercury,  nine-poisons, lingams, and occult practice, why can’t we use other chemicals?

Here are some other articles by him: https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/wisdom/article/ayahuasca-parasitic-purging (On ayahuasca)

https://isha.sadhguru.org/ca/en/wisdom/article/drugs-and-the-spiritual-path-possibility-or-pitfall (In this one he clearly says it is a possibility to use drugs to awaken)

”So drugs are the lowest possibility, but still a possibility.” - Sadhguru

In short, he is mostly talking about recreational drug use. He is very tight lipped about using them for awakening.

Interesting information, thank you.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

In one of Eckhart Tolle's talks he recounts an experience of trying acid after other people telling him about it, and he must've taken a very low dose, because he only describes colors, sounds, other sensations being slightly enhanced and nothing else. He was basically saying its not necessary in order to experience presence while  alluding to how most people are so out of touch with the present moment which is is why they peg LSD as so profound. He did not discourage its use though, certainly would not think he groups it with alcohol, which he has talked about being used to "fall below thought". 

Still though, Eckhart did not fully explore the realm of what psychedelics have to offer by just dabbling his feet in the water with LSD. Probably had no desire to ever do it again after concluding it was just a sensory enhancer. Can't know for sure though. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by TrynaBeTurquoise

[Arcangelo]

We are all teachers and students

I recommend the use of psychedelics for spiritual, mental and even physical growth.

-Try doing sports while microdosing, and tell me how it went. Your muscles will feel pleasure instead of pain, your strength will be multiplied by 1.5 or even 2, and no one will ever find out. LOTS of athletes are microdosing nowadays.

-Try doing something creative or intellectual while microdosing. Your focus and enthusiasm will be multiplied by 7. Your creativity will be increased too.

Psychedelics are a blessing for humanity. I pity the fools that don't see it. I pity the people who will die w/o ever trying them. You guys wasted your life, let me tell you.

 

My spiritual awakening was triggered by my first dose of Xanga-DMT. And yeah you can meditate 1000 years 12 hours a day every day, and you will not reach what me, Leo and others have reached. Not an overstatement. 

 

Arc.

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

 

[Nahm]

@4201 I think you could step back, prior to the duality of should I or shouldn’t I by doing something healing for yourself. Any ‘modality’. If it’s on your mind, but you’re not feeling like you would like to be about it, address the feeling, how you’re feeling in general. Hit yourself with some well being. Soon enough the feeling will let you know if and when to go trip balls / get closer to God.

[4201]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

@4201 I think you could step back, prior to the duality of should I or shouldn’t I by doing something healing for yourself. Any ‘modality’. If it’s on your mind, but you’re not feeling like you would like to be about it, address the feeling, how you’re feeling in general. Hit yourself with some well being. Soon enough the feeling will let you know if and when to go trip balls / get closer to God.

In the past, I abused and disrepected the substance, taking LSD every 2 weeks and 5 MeO every other week for 6 months. Only 2-3 trips were meaningful in the lot  and 1 trip was pure hell.

On my last trip in december, I decided to do exactly that, step back, start implementing in my sober life the tips I have gotten from those 2-3 insightful trips. I decided to stop psychedelics for a entire year (the entirity of 2020), and totally reconsider the frequency at which I take such substance. Since then I started reading books, some of which totally changed the way I go about my life and increased my ability to cultivate consciousness. I've been doing some great progress in the last month, overcoming some challenges I would in the past get drown in.

But I miss LSD. I treated it like a toy and I miss my toy. I miss looking at the art my mind creates inside, my reality falling appart and feeling like I understand everything. As far as personal growth is concerned, I don't feel like I need LSD right now, but it would be fun. Thinking about LSD is avoiding the Now and it is what my ego does constantly. It does so especially in harder times, trying to convince itself that I "need" LSD to get out of that situation, which is total bullshit.

[Nahm]

@4201 What about the “he goes away and works on what he has seen” part? I wonder if that there’s nothing to know is getting contextualized in hindsight as understanding everything. It could be that you’re thinking the trips added something which felt great, and in a way they do, but a case could be made that it’s what they take away which is desired. In short, and in part, overthinking is ‘taken away’. Thought & feeling alignment can be very effective for the permanent ‘taking away’ of the monkey mind. That which they take away, beliefs, perspectives, paradigm locks, etc...inspection, healing, and practices also “take away”. All the wonderfulness experienced on the trips, any way you slice it, is you. You are the Goodness which is the Goodness. Just some layers to let go. 

With regards to the gurus & psych’s...who cares about their relative stories, their path, their way. Listen more intently to that which all of them are in perfect agreement upon. Hear more where or who they are right now. That is the same. Where they came from, what they did or didn’t experience, never happened anyways. 

[4201]

4 hours ago, Nahm said:

@4201 What about the “he goes away and works on what he has seen” part? I wonder if that there’s nothing to know is getting contextualized in hindsight as understanding everything. It could be that you’re thinking the trips added something which felt great, and in a way they do, but a case could be made that it’s what they take away which is desired. In short, and in art, overthinking is ‘taken away’. Thought & feeling alignment can be very effective for the permanent ‘taking away’ of the monkey mind. That which they take away, beliefs, perspectives, paradigm locks, etc...inspection, healing, and practices also “take away”. All the wonderfulness experienced on the trips, any way you slice it, is you. You are the Goodness which is the Goodness. Just some layers to let go. 

With regards to the gurus & psych’s...who cares about their relative stories, their path, their way. Listen more intently to that which all of them are in perfect agreement upon. Hear more where or who they are right now. That is the same. Where they came from, what they did or didn’t experience, never happened anyways. 

Thank you. Indeed the realization that there's nothing to know was indeed being misinterpreted as feeling like understanding everything. 

[SerpaeTetra]

The one thing that stood out to me about Leo's latest video is that he said he had 80 trips, but someone needed about 50 trips to understand psychedelics.  What if someone who had 200 trips said you need 150 trips, or if someone with 300 trips said you need 250 trips.  Hilarious.  No fault to Leo, he is just self-biased (which I learned about from him!)  

[SerpaeTetra]

Maybe people with 300+ trips start having really harsh consequences.  People smoked cigarettes for 10-20 years without any notable negative effects, but who knows what happens after 20 years. 

 

Leo- what are the effects of psychedelics after using for 15 years?  

I'm not anti-psychedelics, but the way you talk about them makes it seems to me that you know the long term effects.

[Nahm]

@4201 Awesome. Perhaps think of the term The Cosmic Joke. It might help if you seem to only be recalling the set up. Pretty sweet punchline. That joke is best when recalling it in it’s entirety. 

[TrynaBeTurquoise]

10 hours ago, SerpaeTetra said:

Maybe people with 300+ trips start having really harsh consequences.  People smoked cigarettes for 10-20 years without any notable negative effects, but who knows what happens after 20 years. 

 

Leo- what are the effects of psychedelics after using for 15 years?  

I'm not anti-psychedelics, but the way you talk about them makes it seems to me that you know the long term effects.

Using long-term health effects of cigarettes and comparing them to psychs are apples and oranges. Two completely different things. 

Classical psychs like Mushrooms and LSD are among the most physiologically safe compounds for the brain, more-so than even coffee, which a healthy individual can use regularly for years. 

Edited February 17, 2020 by TrynaBeTurquoise

[4201]

On 17/02/2020 at 9:38 AM, Nahm said:

@4201 Awesome. Perhaps think of the term The Cosmic Joke. It might help if you seem to only be recalling the set up. Pretty sweet punchline. That joke is best when recalling it in it’s entirety. 

I recently got the joke for the first time. Perhaps the fact I identifies with getting the joke is what prevents me from getting it again right now.

It was on 200µg 1P-LSD though. Is there chance of getting the joke again but sober? Chances of getting it everyday sober? I'm curious how often someone like you get the joke.

Thank you for mentionning it. It didn't make so much sense at the time but now it does. I had so much things to explore while having no self but it was so short. I was distracted by a huge hunger that didn't stop although I was full.

Edited June 1, 2020 by 4201