Kushu2000

Unspirituality?

121 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

No amount of psychedelics can help so long as the person maintains the context of "it's all just wacky stuff happening in the brain." That materialist anchor must be challenged until it is realized that the brain was merely a conceptual fabrication.

Of course it takes radical openmindedness to even take such a possibility seriously. It just does not occur to most people that their brain could be a hallucination. Let alone all of material reality, let alone their birth as a self.

This is radical work we're doing here folks. The mindfuck of it is epic beyond description. It is twisted as fuck.

there is a neuroscientist with 30 year old study who found out mystical experiences and near death experiences can be triggered by stimulating certain part of the brain. the exact same thing happens when you take psychedelic (chemical).

So you are your brain in that sense.

No matter how much you trip Leo you will always come back to default self. Or you might go psychotic that is also a option.

 

Edited by Richard Alpert

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Posted (edited)

@Richard Alpert

First of all, cite your sources. You may be bastardizing this finding, and none of us will know that unless you are transparent about your claims.

Secondly, just because there are correlations between the brain and what you may call mystical experiences, that is NOT "proof" that the brain causes states of consciousness.

Correlation is not causation. Basic statistics. You learn this in high school.

Edited by RendHeaven

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Posted (edited)

I think Zzenn is a good counter-perspective to Leo.  We learn from every perspective do we not?  The great thing about life is we get a cornucopia of different perspectives to learn from.  If you don't like variety, stay off the Internet.  There are plenty of rocks to live under as many people choose to do.  Stay open to perspectives and open to being wrong or stupid.  Nietzsche wisely said that stupidity must be accounted for -- and I think this applies to all systems, including ourselves.  So, stay humble and open to criticism.  If you're secure in who you are, criticism shouldn't bother you deeply anyway.  If somebody has an insight that can help me, I want to be presented with it.  The last thing I wanna do is make people hesitant to share corrections with me.  Criticize me please.  That's how I learn and how I've learned on here to boot.  Welcome criticism and show compassion to those who you genuinely believe are misguided.  Everybody has a genius to them that you can learn from if you're willing to look for it.  It's like Emerson said, and I paraphrase: there is something in everybody where they are superior to you in some way which you can be wise to learn from them.  E.g., you can learn to integrate the pros of Stage Beige from interacting with a baby.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

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9 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

@Richard Alpert

First of all, cite your sources. You may be bastardizing this finding, and none of us will know that unless you are transparent about your claims.

Secondly, just because there are correlations between the brain and what you may call mystical experiences, that is NOT "proof" that the brain causes states of consciousness.

Correlation is not causation. Basic statistics. You learn this in high school.

Never heard anyone with no brain activity have any kind of "spiritual" experience.

The spiritual doorway in the brain by Kevin Nelson. 

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5 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

1) Never heard anyone with no brain activity have any kind of "spiritual" experience.

2) The spiritual doorway in the brain by Kevin Nelson. 

1) That's because you're assuming consciousness is fractured and trapped within individual people.

2) Thanks! I suggest you (and anyone else who is curious) take a look at this review of that book.

These reviewers clearly know what they are talking about, as shown by their ability to take multiple paradigms into account.

The important takeaway is, Nelson was evidently biased and paradigm locked. This is questioned thoroughly in this review.

This does not discount his findings, but it does discount his conclusions. Notice, what a scientist finds and what a scientist concludes can be two very different things.

https://www.academia.edu/9480789/The_Spiritual_Doorway_in_the_Brain_A_Neurologists_Search_for_the_God_Experience_by_Kevin_Nelson_review_

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16 hours ago, Kushu2000 said:

Yes, the states of consciousness Leo has accessed are insane. But that's all they are - States of consciousness.

I think you might be underestimating states of consciousness.

Consider the possibility of a state of consciousness where you realize, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this state of consciousness is the realest thing there is. Perhaps even the only thing there is...

And that this "ordinary" state of consciousness we're having right now is a complete dilution, fantasy land!

But how could you possibly see that when you're in this fantasy land? - You can't! 


Hard times create strong men. 
Strong men create good times. 
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

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36 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

there is a neuroscientist with 30 year old study who found out mystical experiences and near death experiences can be triggered by stimulating certain part of the brain. the exact same thing happens when you take psychedelic (chemical).

So you are your brain in that sense.

So does consciousness occur in the brain or does the brain occur within consciousness?

Maybe the brain, the scientist and the entire experiment happen within consciousness.

The result of the study would still be the same.


Hard times create strong men. 
Strong men create good times. 
Good times create weak men.
Weak men create hard times.

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Shiva said:

I think you might be underestimating states of consciousness.

Consider the possibility of a state of consciousness where you realize, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this state of consciousness is the realest thing there is. Perhaps even the only thing there is...

And that this "ordinary" state of consciousness we're having right now is a complete dilution, fantasy land!

But how could you possibly see that when you're in this fantasy land? - You can't! 

LOL. This can't be further from the truth.

Ordinary states of consciousness are just as real as the higher ones. All states of consciousness are real. There's nothing but states of consciousness. That's what the higher states show you.

Edited by Truth Addict

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2 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Richard Alpert

Heart stopped, blood drained from body and brain, chilled to 60 degrees NDE.

Wow, this is a gem!

Sadly, I get this feeling that materialists will still insist on "hallucination!" to maintain their worldview of "brainz>everything else!!"

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

LOL. This can't be further from the truth.

Ordinary states of consciousness are just as real as the higher ones. All states of consciousness all real. There's nothing but states of consciousness. That's what the higher states show you.

Finger pointing to the moon, my man :x

Ofc the finger ain't the moon.

Shiva's analogy here is clearly tailored toward someone locked in materialism, thus it is a partial truth.

You can't bust out anekantavada on a materialist, they will reject it immediately xD

(not that anekantavada is any more "truthful" than any other partial truth, necessarily. Very twisted, tricky stuff.)

Edited by RendHeaven

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1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

Finger pointing to the moon, my man :x

Ofc the finger ain't the moon.

Shiva's analogy here is clearly tailored toward someone locked in materialism, thus it is a partial truth.

You can't bust out anekantavada on a materialist, they will reject it immediately xD

So the moon wont be there if you dont look at it?

 

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5 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

So the moon wont be there if you dont look at it?

You make it sound like it matters. Like your identity is dependent on the moon's existence.

It's possible that the moon gets hit by a massive meteor while you're not looking. Who knows?

What do you know other than right now? Literally nothing.

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6 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You make it sound like it matters. Like your identity is dependent on the moon's existence.

It's possible that the moon gets hit by a massive meteor while you're not looking. Who knows?

What do you know other than right now? Literally nothing.

You did not get it, did you.. where did i say it matters? i just wanted an answer.

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@Richard Alpert what is something without a perceiver?


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Richard Alpert what is something without a perceiver?

so the moon stops existing when there are 8 billion perceivers minus one?

If whole humanity would be wiped away i think it still would be a moon. It would not be called a moon since there would be no language but it would be what it is.

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6 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

You did not get it, did you.. where did i say it matters? i just wanted an answer.

Why do you want an answer? I don't need your answer, keep it for yourself. Become aware of your mechanisms.

And let me help you out a little bit. It matters to you because you believe that the world is material. You deem everyone who doesn't believe the same thing 'deluded' and discount them. You're like super obvious, classic materialist.

1 minute ago, Richard Alpert said:

so the moon stops existing when there are 8 billion perceivers minus one?

Then there would be 8 billion human beings minus one, telling that one a story about the existence of the moon. Very simple.

Stories are not true, nor false. They're just stories. Become aware of that.

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Posted (edited)

@Richard Alpert  Some "thing" collapses into Being when you are not perceiving it. Form collapses into formlessness.  When you perceive something it collapses back in the other direction from formlessness to form.  

In your finite form you cannot be other perspectives so you do not know what is collapsing into form or formless for them.   But the Moon is both form and formless simultaneously.

Edited by Inliytened1

We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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