Kushu2000

Unspirituality?

117 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

@Richard Alpert

First of all, cite your sources. You may be bastardizing this finding, and none of us will know that unless you are transparent about your claims.

Secondly, just because there are correlations between the brain and what you may call mystical experiences, that is NOT "proof" that the brain causes states of consciousness.

Correlation is not causation. Basic statistics. You learn this in high school.

Edited by RendHeaven

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Posted (edited)

I think Zzenn is a good counter-perspective to Leo.  We learn from every perspective do we not?  The great thing about life is we get a cornucopia of different perspectives to learn from.  If you don't like variety, stay off the Internet.  There are plenty of rocks to live under as many people choose to do.  Stay open to perspectives and open to being wrong or stupid.  Nietzsche wisely said that stupidity must be accounted for -- and I think this applies to all systems, including ourselves.  So, stay humble and open to criticism.  If you're secure in who you are, criticism shouldn't bother you deeply anyway.  If somebody has an insight that can help me, I want to be presented with it.  The last thing I wanna do is make people hesitant to share corrections with me.  Criticize me please.  That's how I learn and how I've learned on here to boot.  Welcome criticism and show compassion to those who you genuinely believe are misguided.  Everybody has a genius to them that you can learn from if you're willing to look for it.  It's like Emerson said, and I paraphrase: there is something in everybody where they are superior to you in some way which you can be wise to learn from them.  E.g., you can learn to integrate the pros of Stage Beige from interacting with a baby.

Edited by Joseph Maynor

Leo currently has me banned from posting or responding to PM messages.

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9 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

@Richard Alpert

First of all, cite your sources. You may be bastardizing this finding, and none of us will know that unless you are transparent about your claims.

Secondly, just because there are correlations between the brain and what you may call mystical experiences, that is NOT "proof" that the brain causes states of consciousness.

Correlation is not causation. Basic statistics. You learn this in high school.

Never heard anyone with no brain activity have any kind of "spiritual" experience.

The spiritual doorway in the brain by Kevin Nelson. 

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5 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

1) Never heard anyone with no brain activity have any kind of "spiritual" experience.

2) The spiritual doorway in the brain by Kevin Nelson. 

1) That's because you're assuming consciousness is fractured and trapped within individual people.

2) Thanks! I suggest you (and anyone else who is curious) take a look at this review of that book.

These reviewers clearly know what they are talking about, as shown by their ability to take multiple paradigms into account.

The important takeaway is, Nelson was evidently biased and paradigm locked. This is questioned thoroughly in this review.

This does not discount his findings, but it does discount his conclusions. Notice, what a scientist finds and what a scientist concludes can be two very different things.

https://www.academia.edu/9480789/The_Spiritual_Doorway_in_the_Brain_A_Neurologists_Search_for_the_God_Experience_by_Kevin_Nelson_review_

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16 hours ago, Kushu2000 said:

Yes, the states of consciousness Leo has accessed are insane. But that's all they are - States of consciousness.

I think you might be underestimating states of consciousness.

Consider the possibility of a state of consciousness where you realize, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this state of consciousness is the realest thing there is. Perhaps even the only thing there is...

And that this "ordinary" state of consciousness we're having right now is a complete dilution, fantasy land!

But how could you possibly see that when you're in this fantasy land? - You can't! 


Knowing is not enough. We must apply.
Willing is not enough. We must do. 

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36 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

there is a neuroscientist with 30 year old study who found out mystical experiences and near death experiences can be triggered by stimulating certain part of the brain. the exact same thing happens when you take psychedelic (chemical).

So you are your brain in that sense.

So does consciousness occur in the brain or does the brain occur within consciousness?

Maybe the brain, the scientist and the entire experiment happen within consciousness.

The result of the study would still be the same.


Knowing is not enough. We must apply.
Willing is not enough. We must do. 

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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Shiva said:

I think you might be underestimating states of consciousness.

Consider the possibility of a state of consciousness where you realize, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that this state of consciousness is the realest thing there is. Perhaps even the only thing there is...

And that this "ordinary" state of consciousness we're having right now is a complete dilution, fantasy land!

But how could you possibly see that when you're in this fantasy land? - You can't! 

LOL. This can't be further from the truth.

Ordinary states of consciousness are just as real as the higher ones. All states of consciousness are real. There's nothing but states of consciousness. That's what the higher states show you.

Edited by Truth Addict

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2 minutes ago, Keyhole said:

@Richard Alpert

Heart stopped, blood drained from body and brain, chilled to 60 degrees NDE.

Wow, this is a gem!

Sadly, I get this feeling that materialists will still insist on "hallucination!" to maintain their worldview of "brainz>everything else!!"

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

LOL. This can't be further from the truth.

Ordinary states of consciousness are just as real as the higher ones. All states of consciousness all real. There's nothing but states of consciousness. That's what the higher states show you.

Finger pointing to the moon, my man :x

Ofc the finger ain't the moon.

Shiva's analogy here is clearly tailored toward someone locked in materialism, thus it is a partial truth.

You can't bust out anekantavada on a materialist, they will reject it immediately xD

(not that anekantavada is any more "truthful" than any other partial truth, necessarily. Very twisted, tricky stuff.)

Edited by RendHeaven

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1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

Finger pointing to the moon, my man :x

Ofc the finger ain't the moon.

Shiva's analogy here is clearly tailored toward someone locked in materialism, thus it is a partial truth.

You can't bust out anekantavada on a materialist, they will reject it immediately xD

So the moon wont be there if you dont look at it?

 

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5 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

So the moon wont be there if you dont look at it?

You make it sound like it matters. Like your identity is dependent on the moon's existence.

It's possible that the moon gets hit by a massive meteor while you're not looking. Who knows?

What do you know other than right now? Literally nothing.

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6 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You make it sound like it matters. Like your identity is dependent on the moon's existence.

It's possible that the moon gets hit by a massive meteor while you're not looking. Who knows?

What do you know other than right now? Literally nothing.

You did not get it, did you.. where did i say it matters? i just wanted an answer.

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@Richard Alpert what is something without a perceiver?


We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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1 minute ago, Inliytened1 said:

@Richard Alpert what is something without a perceiver?

so the moon stops existing when there are 8 billion perceivers minus one?

If whole humanity would be wiped away i think it still would be a moon. It would not be called a moon since there would be no language but it would be what it is.

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6 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

You did not get it, did you.. where did i say it matters? i just wanted an answer.

Why do you want an answer? I don't need your answer, keep it for yourself. Become aware of your mechanisms.

And let me help you out a little bit. It matters to you because you believe that the world is material. You deem everyone who doesn't believe the same thing 'deluded' and discount them. You're like super obvious, classic materialist.

1 minute ago, Richard Alpert said:

so the moon stops existing when there are 8 billion perceivers minus one?

Then there would be 8 billion human beings minus one, telling that one a story about the existence of the moon. Very simple.

Stories are not true, nor false. They're just stories. Become aware of that.

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Posted (edited)

@Richard Alpert  Some "thing" collapses into Being when you are not perceiving it. Form collapses into formlessness.  When you perceive something it collapses back in the other direction from formlessness to form.  

In your finite form you cannot be other perspectives so you do not know what is collapsing into form or formless for them.   But the Moon is both form and formless simultaneously.

Edited by Inliytened1

We must not cease from exploration and at the end of all our exploring will be to arrive at the place where we began and to know the place for the first time.       --T.S Eliot

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3 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Why do you want an answer? I don't need your answer, keep it for yourself. Become aware of your mechanisms.

And let me help you out a little bit. It matters to you because you believe that the world is material. You deem everyone who doesn't believe the same thing 'deluded' and discount them. You're like super obvious, classic materialist.

Then there would be 8 billion human beings minus one, telling that one a story about the existence of the moon. Very simple.

Stories are not true, nor false. They're just stories. Become aware of that.

Did you read it or are you dyslexic? I said that the moon would be there (with no name) if there were no humans telling stories about it.

I don´t have problem with materilism, 

 

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2 hours ago, Richard Alpert said:

I been switching mails with Zenn for maybe a year. 

He is a real deal. He is not perfect, far from it, but he is a great teacher. People don´t want to listen him because he will fuck your world up. He is brutally honest, nasty, friendly, loving, human. He is the full spectrum of humanism.

Left hand path and new age does not mix well.

He has had the most powerfull kundalini awekening (human metamorphosis) and has talked about how he has had pretty much every textbook spiritual "state" and experience. He also started his path 35 years ago. Experience matters in everything. He knows what is what and has no shame.

 

 

 

Makes me wonder why he's still masturbating about concepts like Leo. That's a large portion of the intellectual work until you go past that into pure being Ness. It's a big part of the journey but I thought 30 years would make you past that. Of course that's probably me doing the same thing I just talked against in the first sentence. 

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2 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Makes me wonder why he's still masturbating about concepts like Leo. That's a large portion of the intellectual work until you go past that into pure being Ness. It's a big part of the journey but I thought 30 years would make you past that. Of course that's probably me doing the same thing I just talked against in the first sentence. 

 

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

Did you read it or are you dyslexic?

That sounds like suffering on your side.

23 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

I said that the moon would be there (with no name) if there were no humans telling stories about it.

That's irrelevant to what I'm trying to point out to you.

Anyway, where exactly is this 'there' that the moon would be in, other than your imagination?

If you're not looking at the moon right now, how do you know with a 100% certainty that it's still in the sky? How do you know with a 100% certainty that there is even a sky if you're not looking at it right now?

You might say: I could go outside and look at it, and that would prove that I'm right. But that would be you imagining a future where you could go and do that, not actually experiencing any moon in the present moment.

If you want to understand spirituality, you must discard all notions of future and past at first.

23 minutes ago, Richard Alpert said:

I don´t have problem with materilism.

I don't have a problem with it too, except that it's not the absolute truth, but rather just a perspective, a very practical one indeed (which is the best thing about materialism).

Materialism is highly dependent on imagination/assumptions, and materialists believe that it delivers the truth (notice: belief = imagination). Materialists poo poo metaphysics, but you (especially materialists) can't escape metaphysics. Become aware of that.

Edited by Truth Addict

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