Why Some Seekers Reject Psychedelics

[cetus]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

What’s the best route to Here?

When there is no There.

[Key Elements]

26 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

So true. I am always thinking on having an experience which will help me understand more the nature of reality, and that will never happen really.

Yes it will. Don't doubt that. Some ppl say, for example, that one does not need a life purpose to have a nature of reality. I think this is very wrong. If you make your life purpose very meaningful, something can happen. There is such thing as karma. Duality is part of non-duality. Something profound did happen to me as I went along in my life purpose. Why is this life not to be lived fully? That's absurd. Life is always showing us that challenges are opportunities. I think if one just keeps inducing himself/herself with psychedelics and expect to live a profound, meaningful life, that sounds suspicious.

[abrakamowse]

@Key Elements  Yes, I was more talking from the POV of the ego. The ego will never understand reality. But our true nature yes.

And about the life purpose, today I had an insight of something I already knew. It was that if really there's no purpose in life, the only purpose is just to be. The ego get depressed when it understand that, but our true nature feels free, free to develop any purpose he/she wants.

Today I felt free really to realize and do my true purpose, that I create it but I do it because that's how life works, not because I want something out of it.

[Matt8800]

31 minutes ago, abrakamowse said:

@Key Elements  Yes, I was more talking from the POV of the ego. The ego will never understand reality. But our true nature yes.

And about the life purpose, today I had an insight of something I already knew. It was that if really there's no purpose in life, the only purpose is just to be. The ego get depressed when it understand that, but our true nature feels free, free to develop any purpose he/she wants.

Today I felt free really to realize and do my true purpose, that I create it but I do it because that's how life works, not because I want something out of it.

Thats a great insight

There is another side of that however....the other purpose is evolution. I think both insights are two sides of a paradox.

Buddhism and Yoga disagree as to whether there is an atman/soul. Western mysticism agrees with yoga. I think our individuated atman/soul evolves for eternity, in many realms.

[Truth Addict]

@Matt8800

Okay, thanks for explaining.

But isn't the word "real" itself a judgement, and therefore an interpretation? What is the difference between real and unreal anyway? Why does it matter to us to say that direct experience is real and all other things are not? Is there a deeper dynamic here? The map is not the territory, but isn't it? I mean thoughts are happening inside awareness, right?

What I want to say is that, yes, direct experience is real in the present moment, and only in the present moment. After that, it becomes a memory, and therefore cannot be trusted, because what do we call it when we trust a thought? A belief, of course. So, eventually, there is no difference between belief and direct experience in the sense that you're presenting here. They are the same thing in the present moment/awareness. Only difference is that direct experience gives something that I call "personal thoughts", and beliefs are rather just some "external thoughts".

So, to be more accurate, we could say that the present moment/awareness is all that there is, whether with or without interpretation/maps.

What do you think?

@Serotoninluv Leo would say 5-MeO-DMT ?

Edited June 27, 2019 by Truth Addict

[abrakamowse]

54 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

Thats a great insight

There is another side of that however....the other purpose is evolution. I think both insights are two sides of a paradox.

Buddhism and Yoga disagree as to whether there is an atman/soul. Western mysticism agrees with yoga. I think our individuated atman/soul evolves for eternity, in many realms.

Yes, I agree with that. Probably our concept of self is not adequate to describe it but in my book is a self, our true self.

And about the insight I mentioned, I knew long time ago it was like that but intellectually, now it was more like a knowing. Like a thought (but it was not a thought) that confirmed that what I suspected about that it was true, and made me feel more "liberated".

And about the insight of evolution, that is great too... consciousness is constantly evolving, or so it seems from our POV.

:-)

[Matt8800]

17 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Matt8800

Okay, thanks for explaining.

But isn't the word "real" itself a judgement, and therefore an interpretation? What is the difference between real and unreal anyway? Why does it matter to us to say that direct experience is real and all other things are not? Is there a deeper dynamic here? The map is not the territory, but isn't it? I mean thoughts are happening inside awareness, right?

What I want to say is that, yes, direct experience is real in the present moment, and only in the present moment. After that, it becomes a memory, and therefore cannot be trusted, because what do we call it when we trust a thought? A belief, of course. So, eventually, there is no difference between belief and direct experience in the sense that you're presenting here. They are the same thing in the present moment/awareness. Only difference is that direct experience gives something that I call "personal thoughts", and beliefs are rather just some "external thoughts".

So, to be more accurate, we could say that the present moment/awareness is all that there is, whether with or without interpretation/maps.

What do you think?

 

Yes, awareness of the present moment is all there really is BUT I personally think that gnosis and intention transcend the ego. Gnosis is spiritual knowledge that one acquires during periods when the ego is dissolved (such as with samadhi and psychedelics).

Western mysticism would claim that gnosis and intention are subtle, malleable and "attached" to the soul/atman. Intention directs the actions and decisions of the ego.

This is where the subject begins to delve into paradoxes and spiritual opinions that cannot be verified in this lifetime

Edited June 27, 2019 by Matt8800

[Truth Addict]

@Matt8800 ?

It's much more simpler than that.

Whatever you think/believe becomes reality for you.

If you believe that gnosis is reliable, it becomes reliable. If you believe it isn't, it doesn't. Thought is a sneaky S.O.B.

And you can't even argue against this, because I already know/believe that it's true ??

[Matt8800]

15 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Matt8800 ?

It's much more simpler than that.

Whatever you think/believe becomes reality for you.

 

That is very true. Belief and reality are like the chicken and the egg. The Occult, Tantra, Qigong and Daoism utilize that concept to bend reality. 

[Key Elements]

4 hours ago, abrakamowse said:

@Key Elements  not because I want something out of it.

I think it's ok to want something out of it, as long as it's a win-win situation for all. The ego isn't "evil," unless you make it so.

[Key Elements]

12 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

agreed. im simply stating some statements are true and some are false. what people do with that is up to them but lying to ourselves is of no benefit.

I never called anyone a loser. Any feeling that I did is just someones projection.

You are using the word "delusional" to describe them (stage blue ppl, whoever is calling you out). If you do what they do (by calling them out), what's the difference between you and them? Nothing.

Everything is temporary. It may take some ppl five lifetimes to get it. Nevertheless, that's also temporary.

[Key Elements]

13 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

 

If someone makes the statement that nobody gets spiritual value from psychedelics, that statement is delusional.

 

Just wanted to add...

By making such statements and making them bold like this, this will probably scare ppl off or turn ppl off from taking psychedelics. Because they'll get the impression that you're not opened enough to actually hear them out of what happened to them. It's not a good strategy. They'll probably go to someone else who is a good listener. They want to know what's their next step, whether it's psychedelics or not.

[Matt8800]

10 hours ago, Key Elements said:

You are using the word "delusional" to describe them (stage blue ppl, whoever is calling you out). If you do what they do (by calling them out), what's the difference between you and them? Nothing.

Everything is temporary. It may take some ppl five lifetimes to get it. Nevertheless, that's also temporary.

I stand by my words. The definition of "delusion" is something that is falsely believed. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delusion

There have been times in my life that I held on to false beliefs. That means I held delusions, which made me delusional.

People like to think that truth is a main value for them but many reject the notion that some of their beliefs are false because that would make them feel "bad".

Sometimes delusion is temporary, sometimes it is permanent. Time will tell but if people cant discuss it honestly without their ego getting hurt, there delusion is not going anywhere. Maybe the answer is more courage in facing truth rather than looking for soothing lies that keep them trapped. Sometimes the truth involves tough love.

[Matt8800]

7 hours ago, Key Elements said:

Just wanted to add...

By making such statements and making them bold like this, this will probably scare ppl off or turn ppl off from taking psychedelics. Because they'll get the impression that you're not opened enough to actually hear them out of what happened to them. It's not a good strategy. They'll probably go to someone else who is a good listener. They want to know what's their next step, whether it's psychedelics or not.

I am not saying psychedelics are for everyone. I am saying that some people get great value from using psychedelics. If someone claims, without evidence, that nobody gets real benefits from psychedelics, that is a false belief (delusion). My words are correct.

People like Sadhguru, and other spiritual leaders, have no problem calling out delusion. Go read Ramana or Nisgardatta. They were extremely direct so I am in good company. People can continue in their delusion or they can grow but the choice is theirs.

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by Matt8800

[Key Elements]

37 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

Sometimes the truth involves tough love.

It's your choice. To me, I try not to scare ppl off when it comes to interacting with them in my life purpose.

I'd rather use a different strategy than calling ppl out. Because once they change (I've seen it happen in real life), they change. You'd feel happy for them. I'd rather be ready to welcome them (back) with open arms when this happens. I like seeing the transition of maturity rather than never knowing that they've made the transition. I'm not just talking about this in a psychedelic case. I'm talking about it in any case.

[Nahm]

@Key Elements I believe he said the statement was delusional whereas you personified it. 

[Key Elements]

10 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Key Elements I believe he said the statement was delusional whereas you personified it. 

Well, if you think that, am I in the wrong? Because I would like to point something out--that I don't really like to call ppl out because sometimes you miss out on their transition. I'd like to bring up something new when a topic starts. Why go for the same answers when we already know it?

[Nahm]

@Key Elements I don’t really see you or your statement as wrong or right. Far from it. I think you’re fascinating. Was just pointing out he was saying a statement, not a specific group of people, was delusional. 

[Matt8800]

15 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

Well, if you think that, am I in the wrong? Because I would like to point something out--that I don't really like to call ppl out because sometimes you miss out on their transition. I'd like to bring up something new when a topic starts. Why go for the same answers when we already know it?

Maybe the direct truth doesnt work well with you but Ive helped a lot of people with that approach. 

Incidentally, if someone beats around the bush with me, that does nothing for me. Direct truth when I have been wrong has been most beneficial to me. I am not sensitive to criticism; I only expect it to be well thought out. I am a tough minded and thick skinned person and there are others that are also. The people that I mentor are similar to my style.

BTW, my mental toughness and strong will have been some of my biggest assets on my spiritual journey. People that lack those will have some difficulty until they cultivate them.

Everyone has a different role to play with different strengths. My approach isnt "wrong"; it is just different.

Edited June 28, 2019 by Matt8800

[Key Elements]

5 minutes ago, Matt8800 said:

Maybe the direct truth doesnt work well with you but Ive helped a lot of people with that approach. 

Why do you assume that I don't know the direct truth? That's an assumption. I even said it in this thread. Maybe you might not like the way I said it by using metaphors like 'Riding the Ox Backwards.' I want others to discover it for themselves and make their own conclusions.