Lorcan

Stage Red: The Most Important Stage

25 posts in this topic

Context

My research on spiral dynamics is as follows:

-All Leo's videos

-http://spiraldynamicsintegral.nl/en/red/

-And skimming through the site mentioned above, and other random sites.

-TJ Reeves (Youtube channel) video "If I die, Watch this" Starting at 49:55

-The first page of the chapter on stage red in the spiral dynamics book

(So I have not read the actual book)

A quick side/rant...and some context.

I would assume I do not know it comprehensively, or extensively. So apologies if I am misinterpreting and straying away from the original model. Take everything I say with a pinch of salt. I am perhaps a fool.

A note to Leo, I would like to see more videos covering spiral dynamics more deeply. From what I observe on this forum, people seem to spreading misinformation and making up their own models that stray from the original model, but they talk as if their altered model IS the actual model.

I myself have not read the actual book. So I cannot be sure if I understand the actual model from the other sources mentioned in the context. I admit that, but others seem to be going around selling their own ideas of the model as if it were the original model. 

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PLEASE NOTE: I AM NOT vouching for a regression of consciousness, dictatorship, brutality, or/and stage red to be used in a unhealthy way. I am vouching for stage red to be used to progress the consciousness of man.

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It seems to me there is to much passivity in people higher up in spiral. An absence of stage red if you will. What is wrong with this you may ask?

Well, the "bad guys" end up seizing the power because stage Yellow and Turquoise are to passive, so the guys who have unhealthy excesses of red end up butt-fucking and dominating the higher stages. This includes people in stage blue and orange who have unhealthy excesses of red also. Sure, it's gotten better, but low consciousness still dominates.

What can healthy red do?  (PLEASE KEEP IN MIND THE CONTEXT OF IMPROVING THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF MAN) Here are the characteristics of red ripped from the spiral integral website.

-Impulses and displays of power

-“I-orientation”, dominance, power & oppression

-Strives for self-preservation and respect

-Free from guilt or shame

-Fast & Impulsive

-Guts (Guts ‘n Glory)

-Loyal to those who are considered friends

-Decisive and energetic

-Enforcement by way of sanctions

-Passion “ We’re on a mission!’

-No-nonsense “ If you are not with us, you are against us.”

-Urgency: making your business or yourself important: “ Your playing small doesn’t serve the world!”

 

Yes, of course we need more Tier 2 thinkers, but what we need the most is Tier 2'ers who have mastery and continually embody that mastery of the Tier 1 stages on a daily basis, ESPECIALLY stage red.

Some people think once you've unlocked the next stage you can move on. NO, no no no no no. Stage Beige is for life, Stage Purple is for life, Stage Red is for Life, Stage orange is for life ETC!! YOU HAVE TO EMBODY THE BEST OF EVERY STAGE TO GET THE MOST OUT OF LIFE.

You can just be like "Well, I got a D+ in stage Red way back when when I first unlocked it, I've unlocked yellow now and I'm a master at that, I do not need to go back, I've out grown that I'm *snorts obnoxiously* to high conscious for that"

 

STAGE CORAL LEO FIGHTING STAGE GREEN HERETICS IN THE GRIM DARKNESS OF THE 41st MILLENIUM

(Someone please video edit this so it's Leo head on the bald guy)

:P

In conclusion, my point is. Having healthy stage red is vitally important for seizing power, and I'd rather have the power in the hands of Tier 2 than in the lower half of stages in Tier 1.

Red is often demonized , it should not. It is a powerful tool that requires great responsibility, and when you cease to take responsibility, you have unhealthy red, which is has created some of the worst suffering in the history of man.

 

(I could be wrong, and I likely am wrong, I would love to hear your guys thoughts.)

Edited by Lorcan

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The idea of the spiral is that each stage integrates and grows through each lower stage. Therefore, if someone has truly transcended red, that means they've also integrated red. So, a person who is in the higher tiers would be able to call upon the skills of red if the situations warrants it... if they've truly grown through that stage completely. 


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Emotionalmastery.org

 

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@Lorcan Reading this post made me think of this video:

Leo mentions a "softening" in his stance, not participating in mudslinging contests, etc. at around 53:53 in this video. So what you're looking for in Leo or people Tier 2 and above is quite unlikely to happen.

Besides, mankind is evolving at the perfect rate right now, everything happening right now is a part of the process. Even if Red is currently dominating, that's a part of the process. It may be quite a while until we see an increase in the percentage of Tier 2 people in the global population, but it will happen eventually. Think about how society got to its current Blue/Orange level. Beige and purple is pretty much non-existent at this point, and same thing will happen with Red, and Blue, and Orange, several years down the road.


"Intellectual growth should commence at birth and cease only at death." - Albert Einstein

 

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Does it make sense that if I take 100% responsibility, I have infinite free will? :D 

By the way, all stages are equally important, they all need to be transcended and integrated. If you take responsibility, but you dont have the thinking of a yellow person and the leadership skills of an orange one, while being too little empathetic, because you did not transcend green, it all goes to trash. It also goes the other way around, if you are a genius, but you dont tell anyone, you are a useless person. :D 

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13 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Leo's says his interpretation of Spiral Dynamics is an interpretation too I believe at the beginning of the first video on Stage Blue.  Leo says he's deviating from what other have said about Spiral Dynamics.  There is no model other than your model.  As far as I'm concerned, my models are better than any hearsay model.  First of all, there's not really much information past Turquoise in the literature anyway.  I read the Spiral Dynamics book by Beck and Cowen and I threw it in the trash pretty quickly.  You're not going to learn personal development from a book.  That's why they call it personal development.  It's you working on you.  Nobody can figure that out but you.  You gotta take a model like Spiral Dynamics and use it to grow yourself.  Customize it to your own Path.  Spiral Dynamics is not a set of facts that never change that are discovered once and apply to everything like laws of physics or laws of chemistry do.  Spiral Dynamics is a set of loose frameworks that is more or less useful to help a person or a culture evolve.  Spiral Dynamics is for you and you need to make it your own.  

Could you provide a link to your models? 

So, if everyone is just inventing there own model, then what is even the rules for it in the first place? How is that practical? If Spiral Dynamics is loose framework that came from the books, which you said that you threw in the trash pretty quickly, then, what IS that loose framework?

Spiral Dynamics is just a shorthand way of saying "A Model for Human Behaviour" right?

This will cause great confusion.

I'm assuming with everyone, the loose framework in a nutshell looks like. (And yes, the words after each one is up for interpretation, that's the point)

Beige - Solo 

Purple - Teamwork

Red - Power

Blue - Order

Orange - Business 

Green - Compassion

Yellow - Systemic

Turqouise - Holism

 

Edited by Lorcan

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13 hours ago, Emerald said:

The idea of the spiral is that each stage integrates and grows through each lower stage. Therefore, if someone has truly transcended red, that means they've also integrated red. So, a person who is in the higher tiers would be able to call upon the skills of red if the situations warrants it... if they've truly grown through that stage completely. 

But how many people have truly integrated red? 

Perhaps I am wrong, but I sense almost all people in Tier 2 have mediocre or poorly developed stage red. If they had highly developed stage red, we would see more Tier 2's in power, but since they lack red and perhaps have excess of green, they are not in power.

If Putin and Trump have a well developed (but unhealthy manifestation) stage red, and they have seized the power.

Then what we need is someone In Tier 2 with a healthy and well developed stage yellow or turquoise , BUT, also has a healthy and well developed red, to seize power. Without the red, they cannot do this no?

Show me one person who is in Tier 2 and has healthy red. (Again, I say all this with a pinch of salt, I don't really even believe what I am saying, it is just intellectual discussion)

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I do not know much about history, but, to get an Idea of what I am trying to get at....

@Leo Gura

What if during the height of Stalin's power, Stalin's consciousness gets replaced with Leo Guras consciousness as it currently is. Such that it is Leo Guras, just in Stalin body. In addition Stalin's well developed stage red gets integrated into Leo, but instead of that red being an unhealthy manifestation, it is a healthy manifestation. (Such that Leo isn't using stage red to inflict suffering on people and do all the evil shit Stalin did)

What would that look?

How come we don't have any people like that?

Why does Leo not run for office or Joseph Maynor run for office and seize power? I'd vote for you.

Edited by Lorcan

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Joseph Maynor thinks. 


... 7 rabbits will live forever.                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Hellspeed said:

Joseph Maynor thinks. 

?

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@Lorcan

16 hours ago, Lorcan said:

Could you provide a link to your models? 

So, if everyone is just inventing there own model, then what is even the rules for it in the first place? How is that practical? If Spiral Dynamics is loose framework that came from the books, which you said that you threw in the trash pretty quickly, then, what IS that loose framework?

Spiral Dynamics is just a shorthand way of saying "A Model for Human Behaviour" right?

This will cause great confusion.

I'm assuming with everyone, the loose framework in a nutshell looks like. (And yes, the words after each one is up for interpretation, that's the point)

Beige - Solo 

Purple - Teamwork

Red - Power

Blue - Order

Orange - Business 

Green - Compassion

Yellow - Systemic

Turqouise - Holism

 

You are still oversimplifying the model probably, you should stop that...

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I loved your insight  , it's just on point  ! Our parents demonize red but behind the curtains we all break the rules to get what we want . 

A yellow or green will think Red is the reason why we have evil but no....blue and orange could be as or more evil than all stages  ! 

To make great changes in society we gonna have to use the tactics of red... So we can get ahead  ! Thanks you son 

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On 10/29/2018 at 7:38 AM, bejapuskas said:

@Lorcan

You are still oversimplifying the model probably, you should stop that...

If everyone has there own model.

How can there ba right or wrong model. Provide me a link to your model?

I simplified into a nutshell there for explaination purposes.

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I wish we have more information on Red, would love it if Leo could do a video on it.

I feel like the reason why Reds get such a bad rep is because all we see today is Unhealthy Red Shadow manifestation (I think this is due to extreme repressed Red in ourselves). Then we take our Shadow Red tendencies into relationships (becomes abusive relationships), and take it into work (and it becomes workplace bullying and ruthless climbing of corporate ladders).

I think healthy Orange is about excellence and achievement along with enhancing the self. I think healthy Orange is the embodiment of Win-Win.

Where as if Red is allowed to run wild and in a healthy way, it'll be about hunting etc.

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4 hours ago, Wyze said:

I wish we have more information on Red, would love it if Leo could do a video on it.

I feel like the reason why Reds get such a bad rep is because all we see today is Unhealthy Red Shadow manifestation (I think this is due to extreme repressed Red in ourselves). Then we take our Shadow Red tendencies into relationships (becomes abusive relationships), and take it into work (and it becomes workplace bullying and ruthless climbing of corporate ladders).

I think healthy Orange is about excellence and achievement along with enhancing the self. I think healthy Orange is the embodiment of Win-Win.

Where as if Red is allowed to run wild and in a healthy way, it'll be about hunting etc.

We need more heroic red in people.

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Red is the way to fly oh yes.


... 7 rabbits will live forever.                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

 

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1 hour ago, Hellspeed said:

Red is the way to fly oh yes.

I appreciate the sarcasm, perhaps you misunderstand what I mean.

I have said I do not advocate the shadow red, I advocate red in order to raise consciousness. Un-healthy or shadow red can spoil everything else no?

Same with beige, if your eating a bunch of junk, but your a master in stage yellow, you'll get fucked up at some point due to your bad health. (Which beige is responsible for no?)

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@Hellspeed He probably means it like that if you are true yellow, you are gonna be open to learning from the lower stages, as well as from the higher ones. Orange can become open to learning from beige - how they follow their gut feeling and stuff... Good leaderships skills are red thinking (Adolf Hitler) but they are destructive, if you dont transcend green's compassion... you get it now?

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I agree, I think the very nature of Shadow Work is to shine light and incorporate the "shadow" into a fully functioning component self. (and this advice did not come out of SpiralDynamics, but alot of psychotherapist and enlightened masters of different religions all say the same thing).

I just found it really interesting that Spiral Dynamics also illustrate the same concept of Shadow Work in its model.

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Be afraid of the blue ones, red is the way, even if it has negative inclinations.

A barking dog will never bite, and that is blue. Has no honor.  

Edited by Hellspeed

... 7 rabbits will live forever.                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

 

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@Hellspeed I can see that Unhealthy Blue usually means a unconsciousness need to support a group/rank/hierarchy to fulfill their personal agenda. It is scary in the sense that they don't usually see their self-absorbed reasons behind their actions.

Whereas Reds and Orange are more overt and aware in that sense. And unhealthy Reds and Orange, take that to an extreme level with satisfaction, and knowingly at your expense.

Edited by Wyze
additional information

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