I Can't Comprehend Non-Duality

[Faceless]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

The only freedom you have is the freedom to maintain keen Awareness.

Awareness is freedom. 

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, Faceless said:

Awareness is freedom. 

Exactly.  That's the paradox I was looking for for a long time.  Well said.  Heaven is the liberation of God Awareness from Maya a.k.a. Thought and Experience.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Haumea2018]

Quote

“The self” inherently moves positively-negatively or sustains its own movement by evading (what is) to (what should be-abstraction)

My technical term for this is the ego "boom-bust" or "inflationary-deflationary" dynamic.

[DrewNows]

 

1 minute ago, Faceless said:

Awareness is freedom. 

freedom from mental and psychological pain? 

[Haumea2018]

Freedom from the discontent arising from inability to accept.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018

[DrewNows]

2 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Freedom from the discontent arising from inability to accept.

thank you. 

[Joseph Maynor]

9 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Freedom from the discontent arising from inability to accept.

It's the freedom to not entwine your Awareness within Maya a.k.a. Thought and Experience that the true Self has.  The true Self can say no to losing itself within Maya (Thought and Experience) by just maintaining keen Awareness.  God and the Devil can't exist in the same room at the same time.  In order for the Devil to exist, God must temporarily forget who He is.  The Devil Lures your Awareness into Maya (Thought and Experience) so that your Awareness forgets that You are God and that You're the only 'thing' that actually exists.  So, the Devil wants you to forget who you are, and thus causes you to lose yourself by luring You into illusory Thought and Experience.

Edited September 9, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Haumea2018]

No prob.

[DrewNows]

@Joseph MaynorTwo questions for you: 

Does enlightenment in sports make zero sense? I felt maybe "flow" state is somehow related to higher awareness (maybe non-dual state) 

 

Do you see an enlightened world to be any sort of possibility in the future? 

Edited September 9, 2018 by DrewNows

[Saumaya]

42 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

What I'm doing is pointing out that you can be enlightened at blue, and have all the mind stuff of blue without the separate self sense.

I highly doubt it, while I agree that some shadow issues from blue can follow you, but you wont be functioning from that stage.

48 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

One is called waking up (horizontal enligtenment ~ where enlightenment can happen at any stage- and it does because we have instances of transmitted masters at blue orange and green) and the other is called growing up (vertical enlightenment)

 

I am already familiar with this vertical or horizontal thing, i just dont think they are fully mutually exclusive.

49 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

If it's all semantics then why are you talking about distinctions of 1st and 2nd tier?

 

1st and 2nd tier is the standard model. Talking about a 3rd tier is completely unnecessary

51 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

Ken Wilbur isn't a guru

Nobody is a guru. People follow some people and give them authority, this marks the birth of the guru.  

55 minutes ago, Feel Good said:

3rd tier is the transpersonal

There is no 3rd tier, what he may be talking about is this

 

[Toby]

@Saumaya that is from Ken Wilbers early books. A lot has changed in his model. The "horizontal" / "vertical" thing is relatively new in his work.

[Joseph Maynor]

13 hours ago, Feel Good said:

Pretty obvious this dude has just pulled some random thing from Google scholar without knowing what it is. 

@Saumaya

3rd tier is real dude. We've even got crude research papers on the structure.

Anyway, my time arguing with you has come to end. 

Unless you come with any real understanding of what you assume to be talking about then I can't really discuss this topic with you

I hope to bring these concepts into the forum more clearly. Leo will be commenting on them in the next 12 months I hope as he is already ready introducing lines of development. 

 

Let us know when you write your book.  Saumaya has beat us both.  Build your own original system and we would have something to look at.  Hearsay systems are of limited value if you don't have your own original ideas.  And then you'll find that even those ideas are worthless.  This is why Stage Yellow and Stage Turquoise are unsustainable.  All these heresay systems don't mean squat unless they mean something to you.  Just being a scholar of someone else's ideas has little cash value in Enlightenment work.  Maybe in Science, but that's a different system altogether than Enlightenment.  Do your own work and then come tell us about that.  You gotta focus inward.  Your systems need to come out of you.  Forget about Ken Wilbur.

Edited September 10, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Toby]

@Joseph Maynor @Saumaya May I ask why Ken Wilber is perceived as "outside" when you are talking about "your" "Enlightenment"?

Edited September 9, 2018 by Toby

[Joseph Maynor]

13 hours ago, Toby said:

@Joseph Maynor @Saumaya May I ask why Ken Wilber is perceived as "outside" when you are talking about "your" "Enlightenment"?

I will speak only for myself.  Because you're losing yourself in Thought instead of looking inward.  You're distracting yourself in Thought.  The Thought that's relevant to Enlightenment Work is insights that come directly out of you from self-observation.  Being an expert on a hearsay system as I call it is a trap.  That's exactly the wrong approach to Enlightenment Work because Enlightenment work is about You.  You create and develop your own system that comes out of you.  That's a system worth sharing.  That's called original insights and guaranteed utility -- and then you go share that with the world.  You share what you have birthed yourself, because that's all that you authentically use anyway.  Hearsay systems are mostly a distraction to Enlightenment Work.  The extent that hearsay systems are useful is the extent that they inspire you to have insights and create and develop your own Conceptual Understanding needed for your Spirituality.  Then that's something to talk about.  That's a true gift that you can share with the world because it came out of you and only you, see.  But there's nothing more banal and distracting in Enlightenment Work than to be quibbling over some hearsay system like your working in physics or some other academic discipline.  

Edited September 10, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Toby]

So you say: "don't listen to anyone outside but go inside". Why would I listen to that? Isn't that also just as theoretical / outside as Ken Wilber?

[Jack River]

I think it’s healthy to listen dudes. But that takes freedom. No psychological freedom then we accept or deny what others say without even actually listening to them. This has really helped me over the last month and a half. Think this is what is being said here. 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

 

8 hours ago, Faceless said:

Indeed. “The self” inherently moves positively-negatively or sustains its own movement by evading (what is) to (what should be-abstraction). Psychological time, or (psychological becoming), contributes to the self feeding loop of time as “the i”. 

That damn loop

 

8 hours ago, Faceless said:

Awareness is freedom. 

Fosho dude

[Jack River]

9 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

My technical term for this is the ego "boom-bust" or "inflationary-deflationary" dynamic.

 whoa!! Nice

Edited September 9, 2018 by Jack River

[Haumea2018]

I'm leaning more and more towards the idea that conscious structure development such as Wilber advocates is an ego delusion, and in certain cases actually a trap for seekers, including Wilber himself.

It's typical of the 700s stage, where more and more elaborate hierarchies and conscious development are focused on.

I don't think he has a depth of understanding of full awakening.  He understands its superficial features, but not all of its implications.

This is not to say that there isn't descriptive validity to it; I'm just talking about the idea that you can consciously develop to higher structures: that is the delusion.  

If there is a process there it is spontaneous and unconscious.  I'm afraid forcing it consciously can result in distortions, projections and greater delusions.

 

Edited September 9, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Toby]

5 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

I don't think he has a depth of understanding of full awakening.

That's right imo. His description of states doesn't go beyond what Nisargadatta would call universal consciousness or unity conscious (still within the "I Am" spectrum). Doesn't mean that his stuff isn't valuable as a map in many many other areas of life though. But it has it's flaws. Just as Ramaji's map and his ratings has it's flaws.