Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

[Key Elements]

@Serotoninluv hey, I've been reading up on polyamorous relationships. And, you know, I learned something new. Now, I see the difference between polyamorous and polygamist/polyandry. Thanks for all the info.

Tbh, I have nothing against any relationships. That's the bottom line. However, let's say I'm married. (Well, I am married.) And, I also have a bf. And, my husband knows about him but doesn't care. Ok then. Fine. However, imo, I'm not sure what is the purpose of having a bf along with being married. I mean, tbh, he may leave one day. Bfs, to my understanding, are not husbands. They are not permanent. Why spend so much time working out a relationship with him when I'm already married?

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

@Serotoninluv hey, I've been reading up on polyamorous relationships. And, you know, I learned something new. Now, I see the difference between polyamorous and polygamist/polyandry. Thanks for all the info.

Tbh, I have nothing against any relationships. That's the bottom line. However, let's say I'm married. (Well, I am married.) And, I also have a bf. And, my husband knows about him but doesn't care. Ok then. Fine. However, imo, I'm not sure what is the purpose of having a bf along with being married. I mean, tbh, he may leave one day. Bfs, to my understanding, are not husbands. They are not permanent. Why spend so much time working out a relationship with him when I'm already married?

I think I have a similar orientation. I'm more oriented to going deeper within a monogamous relationship, than multiple relationships. One of the hardest beliefs for me to overcome was that monogamy goes deeper with one person and poly is more surface level with multiple people.

My perspective from the poly community: each person has a type of energy, characteristics, a type of attraction. Yet no one person can contain all forms. Consider different friends. No one friend can contain all the features you like in friends. So we have multiple friends. Each friend has a different personality and type of energy that we enjoy. We love each friend. . . For example, a woman may like intellectual conversations with a brilliant scientist, yet also like the creative space a brilliant musician takes her. The scientist fills her intellectual wants, while the musician fills her creative wants. It's a very different place and experience with each man. They each bring out a certain part of her. She doesn't want to limit herself to one type of experience. Now add sexuality to the mix. Things like Intellect, creativity, emotion, physical, sexual transcend and merge to collectively form a type of energy. Once I let my guard down, I was able to experience this form of love. It was very different than anything I have experienced. It passed through me intermittently, yet I couldn't maintain it.

Overall, I see that healthy and unhealthy aspects exist in both monogamy and polyamory.

[Forestluv]

 

Here is an example of an ideological green vegan. Rather than view her as some "crazy bitch", see if you can view someone so empathetic to the suffering of others that she herself is suffering. One of the difficulties for the green stage is becoming extremely empathetic for those that are being oppressed or suffering. To the point it's crippling. I've had moments of being overcome with empathy - to the point I am internalizing and experiencing the pain and suffering of someone else. 

 

 

[Elisabeth]

2 hours ago, Key Elements said:

@Serotoninluv hey, I've been reading up on polyamorous relationships. And, you know, I learned something new. Now, I see the difference between polyamorous and polygamist/polyandry. Thanks for all the info.

Tbh, I have nothing against any relationships. That's the bottom line. However, let's say I'm married. (Well, I am married.) And, I also have a bf. And, my husband knows about him but doesn't care. Ok then. Fine. However, imo, I'm not sure what is the purpose of having a bf along with being married. I mean, tbh, he may leave one day. Bfs, to my understanding, are not husbands. They are not permanent. Why spend so much time working out a relationship with him when I'm already married?

@Key Elements There is a narative in monogamy that whenever a relationship ends, it has 'failed'. Polyamorous people tend to disagree and use other metrics to judge their relationships. Such as 'Overall, is this relationship making both people happy? Or, did we have a good time while it lasted? Did this relationship help me grow, become a better person? In this relationship, did I find what I was looking for?'

Someone subscribing to polyamory will often hold the view that relationships end for a number of reasons - life circumstances, preferences changing, people maturing and growing apart - and this is not necessarily bad. It's better to part ways amicably then stay in a dead relationship out of duty. Relationships are like encounters between people that come in all kinds - brief and surprising, or long and committed, life-changeably deep or just fun, calm or dramatic. Sometimes a person you only met once shows you a depth of intimacy that impacts you forever. Sometimes you find someone who's so deeply compatible they become your significant other.

Commitment isn't lacking in polyamorous relationships, but like many other things it's crafted to fit the people involved. People have to think about what they commit to. Honesty and openness? Just treating each other well this one evening? Staying in touch? Building a DS dynamics? Being there in a crisis? Emotional support? Sharing finances? Having children and being good co-parents? Never leaving? Informing each other about new partners? Sharing a spiritual path? These things don't necessarily come in a bundle. You have to negotiate. But, having multiple long-term partners usually takes more commitment then having one.

Polyamory has its deep problems, but relationships ending, according to some, isn't one of them. That's a fact of life. (Ok, you're free to remind me I said this when I'm dealing with heartbreak O:))

To answer your question directly, so why have a boyfriend if I already have a husband? There could be a number of reasons, including but not limited to: actually wanting to have two 'husbands' (and build a household with multiple adults - or not), a need for variety in my emotional life, a huge capacity for intimacy, kinks my husband doesn't share, falling in love unintentionally and not wanting to hold back (after all - we're drawn to people who force us to integrate our shadow side), enjoyment of having two very different in my life, a wish to gain experience and be a better lover, offering mentoring, a wish to explore various flavors of love and relating.

I find, mostly it's an enjoyment of relationship intimacy and a deep appreciation of another human being.

Is polyamory shallow, with all that selfish goals of satisfying your own needs for variety or even excitement? Well, often. But I feel, if people learn to love multiple, it also touches something profound. I don't quite have a name for it. At the very least, you learn how this thing called love isn't coming to you because of a specific person, but how it's your to own, cultivate and live.

Edited September 4, 2018 by Elisabeth

[Forestluv]

@Elisabeth Thank you for sharing your insights Elisabeth!

[Key Elements]

@Elisabeth Thanks for the info. It's informative.

My biggest question is, how does a person transend the relationship phase in polyamory?

So far, from my life experiences, it goes something like this for anyone, in any type of relationships, whether or not it's monogamy or any poly:

Strangers / acquaintances, friends / good friends, best friends / BFFs

Only the best friends and BFFs are permenant. I already put a link to the definition of what's a BFF in this thread. And, it's extremely rare to meet 3 BFFs in a lifetime. They usually come when you're older and matured. That's what I heard. These ppl could either be inside or outside your family.

What happens is, when the relationship becomes stable and adjusted, that's when permanence happens. See, if I'm in a polyamorous relationship, I wonder how long will I keep having impermanent relationships. Sure, I could keep tasting all the different flavors of the rainbow and have bfs after bfs while I'm married. But, there's a time in the life when a person has to move on. Continously having impermanent relationships is time consuming. Imagine spending time with a bf and breaking up and not feeling hurt at all and getting a new one and somewhat adjusting to that. And, this continues throughout life. I'm just painting a picture. I guess there's a point where I just decide to settle for one or none. It would be my choice.

 

[Forestluv]

@Key Elements To me, it seems like you are categorizing relationships. My mind doesn’t really work like that. For example, I was in a one year open relationship that went deeper and more intimate than an 11 year monogamous relationship I was in. Yet in some respects, the 11 year relationship was deeper and more intimate. 

 

[Key Elements]

45 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Key Elements To me, it seems like you are categorizing relationships. My mind doesn’t really work like that. For example, I was in a one year open relationship that went deeper and more intimate than an 11 year monogamous relationship I was in. Yet in some respects, the 11 year relationship was deeper and more intimate. 

 

No I'm not categorizing; it's just my way of explaining. How else am I going to explain it and ask questions?

I don't point fingers. I don't have issues with any type of relationships, not even marriage within family, which is considered to be the biggest taboo in the US.

[Forestluv]

@Key Elements

“Strangers / acquaintances, friends / good friends, best friends / BFFs”

This seems like categories to me. Or a linear continuum. I guess it makes casual conversation more convinient, yet when we dig deeper, it breaks down for me.

[Key Elements]

39 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Key Elements

“Strangers / acquaintances, friends / good friends, best friends / BFFs”

This seems like categories to me. Or a linear continuum. I guess it makes casual conversation more convinient, yet when we dig deeper, it breaks down for me.

Yes, exactly. I don't know how else to put it into words.

[Key Elements]

@Serotoninluv ok...I got it. (I think.) Here's one way to transend relationship in a polyamory. You have 2 married couples:

husband (1) & wife (1)

husband (2) & wife (2)

h(1) + w(2) = permanent bf/gf

h(2) + w(1) = permanent bf/gf

Ok, done. Closed relationship forever.

 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

Yes, exactly. I don't know how else to put it into words.

One cool thing about hanging with the poly crowd was that they used terms I had no reference for: primary, secondary, connection, comet, hierarchical and egalitarian modes of relationships. I had no preconceived notions and I couldn’t assume anything. I was like “hang on, what does that term mean for you?”.

[Key Elements]

@Serotoninluv I just tried to answer my own question. 

[Forestluv]

@Key Elements Once someone steps outside of monogamy, there are so many possible forms of poly. I was amazed by the diversity of poly styles. And I was only exposed to a handful.

There were different combinations. It’s another language / world. Primaries, secondaries, exogamy, closed swinging, free agents, solo poly, monamory, monogamish, open networks, parallel poly, polycule, relationship anarchy, relationship orientation. . . and on and on. 

[Key Elements]

@Serotoninluv do any of the forms become permanent? 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

@Serotoninluv do any of the forms become permanent? 

I’d say it’s similiar to mongamy in that respect. Sometimes it turns out to be a relatively long-term relationship, other times a relatively short term relationship.

I’m not sure what you mean by permanent. I’ve never heard that term used in relationships before.

[Key Elements]

44 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’m not sure what you mean by permanent. I’ve never heard that term used in relationships before.

You know, does it last a lifetime? "Till death do we part." I'm not trying to sound "traditional."

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

You know, does it last a lifetime? "Till death do we part." I'm not trying to sound "traditional."

Oh. I suppose various forms of relationships can have an intention of being permanent, it just depends on the couple. I imagine many poly people hope for permanence between one or more of their connections. There are so many possibilities in poly. It is much more flexible and fluid than monogamy. Most couples and networks seemed to make up some of their own rules that worked for them. Communication and agreement of all involved seemed really important.

[Elisabeth]

4 hours ago, Key Elements said:

You know, does it last a lifetime? "Till death do we part." I'm not trying to sound "traditional."

It can happen.

A person can try all the different forms (or not), and then settle for monogamy. Or a 3 people "V" configuration (closed or open to occasionally dating others). Or a quad like you described (although I don't know any in person or online). Or having a spouse and a bff with whom you're occasionally-sexual. Or decide to not have a spouse at all.

But again I ask you: should lifelong be a goal? Or is it ok to, for instance, divorce when kids fly out of nest and you develop new interest, new standards, a new lifestyle? Doesn't that happen in monogamous relationships whether the people intend it or not? Can you, in any way, absolutely say this won't happen to you when you're committing to marriage? Can you ask that promise from another person?

Don't get me wrong, if I divorced someone after 20 years of raising kids together, it would be devastating. I would certainly hope that people who've managed that are close enough to find a new direction in life together. But sometimes, despite all effort, that doesn't happen.

My ever-favorite poster on polyamory.com says, that "till death do us part" means for her physical death, or the death of the spiritual union. If two people no longer want to be committed, it is dead spiritually. Why hold on. (She's happily married and at the moment closed.)

Polyamory IS time-consuming and heartbreak doesn't hurt less because you have other partners. So even people who feel deeply polyamorously seek stability at some points in their life. People can decide to close their relationship (regardless of how many people are in it - close means not dating anyone new) when caring for kids or elderly parents, when having work stress, when not having enough reason to date, when dealing with trauma, when they don't have the bandwidth for another relationship. A relationship can stay closed for ten years and then reopen again when circumstances change. It's a flexible arrangement.

So yes, people do settle down, and often in a traditional marriage-like form (or a three-people arrangement, these can be fairly stable). But they don't feel like they have to. And I would argue that, since they had to both deal with their fears and get intentional about how they negotiate their relationship agreements, their approach to the 'marriage' is changed forever.

P.S. We've hijacked Leo's thread, but I guess at least we're still a good example of Green

Edited September 5, 2018 by Elisabeth

[Key Elements]

7 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

But again I ask you: should lifelong be a goal? Or is it ok to, for instance, divorce when kids fly out of nest and you develop new interest, new standards, a new lifestyle? Doesn't that happen in monogamous relationships whether the people intend it or not? Can you, in any way, absolutely say this won't happen to you when you're committing to marriage? Can you ask that promise from another person?

Don't get me wrong, if I divorced someone after 20 years of raising kids together, it would be devastating.

Polyamory IS time-consuming and heartbreak doesn't hurt less because you have other partners.

Of course, divorce can happen after 20+ yrs with children in a monogamous relationship. I have no doubts about this being a possibility. But look, it doesn't have to hurt emotionally at all. Why should it?

My point to all of this is, whatever relationship you're in, are you going to find the time to do the real work in your life? Which is life purpose + your spiritual path. If you keep going for new relationships, I bet you won't. You'll keep chasing relationships and adjusting. By the end of the life, you may be thinking, what have I given to the world? Because the actual truth is, all is one.

 

7 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

P.S. We've hijacked Leo's thread, but I guess at least we're still a good example of Green

@Serotoninluv @Elisabeth Thank you both for all the info.

For a long, long, long time, ppl in the relationship area have been talking about polyamory, and I didn't know what it is. I just thought it's polygamy, even when I looked it up. But then, I had second thoughts. I'm like, "wait a minute...this is not polygamy."