Spiral Dynamics Stage Green Examples Mega-Thread

[Raze]

27 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

A minority that is considered unqualified to defend itself based on how it was born against a terrorist attack that is way worse than 9/11 and is hated by the UN is not oppressed?

- They aren’t defending themselves. Hamas already offered a ceasefire from day 1, and idf military officials admit they can’t destroy Hamas.
- No one says they are unqualified to defend themselves. They’ve received billions in aid and weapon sales.

- It wasn’t way worse than 9/11, 9/11 killed 3K people, Oct 7 killed 1.2K

-They aren’t hated by the UN, the UN follows international law and correctly reports on them breaking it

- Yes, none of this has to do with oppression. They are one of the strongest militaries in the world and have a large economy. The people they are fighting have no Air Force are blockaded in a small strip of land and Israel can shutoff their water and gas whenever they want.

27 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

Of course, Hamas has the option to push the buttons of the mainstream. If they think they're going to heaven anyway why not use the economical way of going to heaven that not only gets you to it, but also harms Israel. So, there is no doubting that they would want both benefits rather than just one, so they will choose to die in a fight against Israel and not kill the minority Christian population which would make them look far worse.

All irrelevant or baseless speculation 

27 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

If they don't want Hamas to get destroyed, that's as relevant of a thing to talk about as any.

What is your evidence stage green Palestine supports don’t want “Hamas to be destroyed”? Generally their argument is the process of destroying Hamas isn’t worth the civilian loss of life or isn’t feasible. If they support Hamas they wouldn’t be so critical of the Israeli government previously funding Hamas.

27 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

0.2% of the global population and chased out of Europe by means of literal genocide... simply not good enough, because the mainstream conditions people to think that way.

Yes, Jews were oppressed by Europe. That doesn’t mean Jews are currently oppressed in Europe now or that Israelis are being oppressed by Palestinians. 
 

 

27 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

+ I'm not talking about "Israelis are superior so they get to take the homeland that is objectively theirs." no, I'm talking about moral relativism.

Of course the people in the open air concentration camp are oppressed too.

But the second you look at actual green and not the mainstream, you see support for the downtrodden victims and indirect victims of oct 7th. not "This terrorist organization should just be let go, even tho the reason I believe that is because of the mainstream, which would also be supporting this 200% if the united states was directly fighting the war."

- if Palestinians are oppressed, Israelis aren’t, they can’t be both oppressor and the oppressed 

- The mainstream is generally on the side of Israel and that continues today. The only politicians and media figures who have sided with Palestine are the most leftist. 
 

- Multiple former IDF and Israeli politicians themselves have come out and called for a ceasefire purely for tactical reasons. It isn’t just a stage green position.

Edited July 11, 2024 by Raze

[numbersinarow]

16 hours ago, Raze said:

- They aren’t defending themselves. Hamas already offered a ceasefire from day 1, and idf military officials admit they can’t destroy Hamas.
- No one says they are unqualified to defend themselves. They’ve received billions in aid and weapon sales.

- It wasn’t way worse than 9/11, 9/11 killed 3K people, Oct 7 killed 1.2K

-They aren’t hated by the UN, the UN follows international law and correctly reports on them breaking it

- Yes, none of this has to do with oppression. They are one of the strongest militaries in the world and have a large economy. The people they are fighting have no Air Force are blockaded in a small strip of land and Israel can shutoff their water and gas whenever they want.

All irrelevant or baseless speculation 

What is your evidence stage green Palestine supports don’t want “Hamas to be destroyed”? Generally their argument is the process of destroying Hamas isn’t worth the civilian loss of life or isn’t feasible. If they support Hamas they wouldn’t be so critical of the Israeli government previously funding Hamas.

Yes, Jews were oppressed by Europe. That doesn’t mean Jews are currently oppressed in Europe now or that Israelis are being oppressed by Palestinians. 
 

 

- if Palestinians are oppressed, Israelis aren’t, they can’t be both oppressor and the oppressed 

- The mainstream is generally on the side of Israel and that continues today. The only politicians and media figures who have sided with Palestine are the most leftist. 
 

- Multiple former IDF and Israeli politicians themselves have come out and called for a ceasefire purely for tactical reasons. It isn’t just a stage green position.

If I am getting this correctly, you are literally saying Hamas offered a ceasefire from day 1, while at the same time spreading rhetoric about "from the river to the sea", which the alleged stage green supporters of minorities decided to mimic. You are also saying that Hamas doesn't have the inductive reasoning to know that, if you are 100% doing something awful enough and worse than 9/11 (due to the brutality) to the point where there is no possible world in which there won't be retaliation against the minority you claim to have helped with oct 7th, you absolutely wouldn't want ceasefire to make yourself look good, and make the oppressed minority look bad and give the UN more excuses? How is just this much strategy "baseless speculation"? Unlike baseless claims of Israel controlling or infiltrating the US, Hamas does in fact push the buttons of the mainstream effortlessly. You are getting close to claiming Hamas are saints at this point.

The entire mainstream says Israelis, based on them being Israelis, and Israel, based on it's being Israel, is unqualified morally to defend itself. Who was Trump selling out to when he attacked Israel? He sells out to the mainstream, he wouldn't have encouraged vaccination and then immediately gone back on his claim after getting boo'd if there wasn't an overwhelming amount of propagandized-to people to sell out to.

Almost no green person can think the UN is correctly enforcing some objective morality. The UN punishes people based on the circumstances in the world and it's own interests.

"Yes, Jews were oppressed by Europe. That doesn’t mean Jews are currently oppressed in Europe now or that Israelis are being oppressed by Palestinians."

This is not the topic. There are certainly still Nazis in Germany and Italy but what matters is that Jews were oppressed at the time, or right before the time, that current Israel was founded. So there you go, you just admitted that Jews are the absolute prime candidates to be supported by stage green. Instead we have blue leftists supporting people who throw LGBT members off buildings. This is relevant because you started talking about who they would be drawn to support. They aren't oppressed by the palestinians but they do happen to be an opposing party.

Now on top of that, imagine this minority had to deal with undemocratic countries that were supremacists who believed they should die if they don't believe in the same religion as them according to their holy book. And when they retaliated, this minority was instantly met with insane amounts of hate. Who is green going to support? It's obvious.

"they can’t be both oppressor and the oppressed "

They can be.

Edited July 12, 2024 by numbersinarow

[Raze]

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

If I am getting this correctly, you are literally saying Hamas offered a ceasefire from day 1, while at the same time spreading rhetoric about "from the river to the sea", which the alleged stage green supporters of minorities decided to mimic. You are also saying that Hamas doesn't have the inductive reasoning to know that, if you are 100% doing something awful enough and worse than 9/11 (due to the brutality) to the point where there is no possible world in which there won't be retaliation against the minority you claim to have helped with oct 7th, you absolutely wouldn't want ceasefire to make yourself look good, and make the oppressed minority look bad and give the UN more excuses? How is just this much strategy "baseless speculation"? Unlike baseless claims of Israel controlling or infiltrating the US, Hamas does in fact push the buttons of the mainstream effortlessly. You are getting close to claiming Hamas are saints at this point.

 

1) Yes, Hamas offered a ceasefire from day 1 and continuously, Israel has been refusing it

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-07-10/ty-article-timeline/.premium/how-netanyahu-has-systematically-foiled-talks-to-release-hostages-from-hamas-captivity/00000190-9b91-d591-a7ff-fff341120000

2) Israel’s government actually calls for it and is doing it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_river_to_the_sea#Similar_sayings_by_the_Israeli_right

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/netanyahu-from-river-sea-israel-control-1234949408/

Hamas has offered peace giving up river to the sea control multiple times

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/6/24/the-us-and-israel-missed-many-opportunities-for-peace-with-hamas

3) No, oct 7 was not worse than 9/11. I already explained to you why. Oct 7 was also far less brutal than many of Israel’s campaigns on Palestine.

4) Israel is not an oppressed minority, they outnumber Hamas and control Gazas air space, water, food, and fuel. They are receiving f billions in weaponry. That isn’t oppressed.
 

5) Actually it is not baseless, Israel has a lobby that is spending millions, it is so powerful everyone in congress has an Israeli representative who is always talking to them

6) Hamas is aware Israel’s doctrine is to target the civilian population to try to pressure them, it is entirely possible they expected Israel to commit mass murder to try and make them look bad on the world state 

6 hours ago, numbersinarow said:

 

The entire mainstream says Israelis, based on them being Israelis, and Israel, based on it's being Israel, is unqualified morally to defend itself. Who was Trump selling out to when he attacked Israel? He sells out to the mainstream, he wouldn't have encouraged vaccination and then immediately gone back on his claim after getting boo'd if there wasn't an overwhelming amount of propagandized-to people to sell out to.

Almost no green person can think the UN is correctly enforcing some objective morality. The UN punishes people based on the circumstances in the world and it's own interests.

"Yes, Jews were oppressed by Europe. That doesn’t mean Jews are currently oppressed in Europe now or that Israelis are being oppressed by Palestinians."

This is not the topic. There are certainly still Nazis in Germany and Italy but what matters is that Jews were oppressed at the time, or right before the time, that current Israel was founded. So there you go, you just admitted that Jews are the absolute prime candidates to be supported by stage green. Instead we have blue leftists supporting people who throw LGBT members off buildings. This is relevant because you started talking about who they would be drawn to support. They aren't oppressed by the palestinians but they do happen to be an opposing party.

Now on top of that, imagine this minority had to deal with undemocratic countries that were supremacists who believed they should die if they don't believe in the same religion as them according to their holy book. And when they retaliated, this minority was instantly met with insane amounts of hate. Who is green going to support? It's obvious.

"they can’t be both oppressor and the oppressed "

They can be.

1) What mainstream outlet has said Israel can’t defend itself? Israel also is not defending itself, its doing a revenge campaign. Until recently you would be banned from mainstream outlets for criticizing Israel, people were blacklisted simply for associating with Noam Chomsky because he was criticizing Israel.

In fact the mainstream NYT has been exposed as having blatant pro Israel bias.

https://theintercept.com/2024/01/09/newspapers-israel-palestine-bias-new-york-times/

2) The UN is comprised of many nations hired officials, it’s not a single anti Israel entity. 
For example, every other country has called for Palestine to be brought on as a UN member state, but the UN lets the US veto it and has for decades. If they are anti Israel why do they allow the US to block what every other UN member wants?

3) It isn’t the topic, so stop bringing it up. Israel was founded after Nazi Germany was defeated, so they weren’t escaping oppression from them. The left did support Israel strongly at its founding, but over time this support reduced as Israel committed ethnic cleansing and war crimes.

Like I said stage green is biased for the oppressed, so they are sympathetic to Palestinians despite sharing more values for the Israelis because Israel is oppressing them. The same reason why they were sympathetic to Jews when Europe was oppressing them.

4) “they can be” not by the same group 

 

Edited July 12, 2024 by Raze

[gambler]

@numbersinarow Free Palestine

[gambler]

On 7/11/2024 at 1:30 PM, numbersinarow said:

It's simply an oppressed minority going where it was driven off from by others using pure force, and oppressed by people using pure force. Focusing only on Israel's use of force is more stage blue (because it is based in american exceptionalism), than the textbook blue misandry you post.

Where it was driven off.. you do realize there was no such thing as Ashkenazi or Sephardic Jews 2000 years ago, right? Ashkenazi Jews were birthed as a distinct genetic group in Europe. They have as much ancestry, if not more, from Europe as they do from the Middle East. Therefore they were never driven off from the Middle East since they did not exist before then.

Edited July 13, 2024 by gambler

[gambler]

On 7/11/2024 at 1:30 PM, numbersinarow said:

Green wouldn't support nazis. It's fine to support people who are less developed if you're being honest about it, but not if you're denying that destiny is right about Israel being the only party contending with the reality of the situation, and that it's dealing with people who think it's right to murder people who don't believe in their holy book.

A lot of Jews, especially some in power, view all Palestinian civilians in Gaza as Hamas and that it's right to murder these people. As for the whole they believe its right to murder people who don't believe in their holy book, yea, that's lazy of you. Otherwise Hamas would be murdering it's own Palestinian Christians in the Gaza Strip.

Edited July 13, 2024 by gambler

[gambler]

On 7/11/2024 at 6:20 AM, numbersinarow said:

Repressing one aspect of blue so much that you think it's better to support people who are diametrically opposed to your worldview AKA islamists than to support an oppressed minority taking back it's land. (Clarification: they're repressing the idea of a group's land-ownership and then it expresses itself through a double standard against Israel).

The land belongs to those who are genetically Southern Levantine. Palestinians are Southern Levantines genetically. Therefore, it's Palestinian land. Nice try.

[Bernardo Carleial]

That Character has a lot of the stereotypical vMEME Green guy

[Yimpa]

 

[Raze]

 

[Raze]

 

[Raze]

 

[Raze]

 

[numbersinarow]

Blue, unable to see it's own biases towards mainstream babies like Hamas, getting exposed to the stage green truth that Jews are entitled to their land and military defense.

[gambler]

13 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

Blue, unable to see it's own biases towards mainstream babies like Hamas, getting exposed to the stage green truth that Jews are entitled to their land and military defense.

Ironic coming from someone who thinks Palestinians aren’t entitled to their land. 
 

On 7/11/2024 at 6:20 AM, numbersinarow said:

you think it's better to support people who are diametrically opposed to your worldview AKA islamists than to support an oppressed minority taking back its land. 

Edited July 28, 2024 by gambler

[numbersinarow]

2 hours ago, gambler said:

Ironic coming from someone who thinks Palestinians aren’t entitled to their land. 

You aren't capable of engaging with my arguments. Do you use reddit/quora?

What you are quoting is me saying Jews are an oppressed minority which I demonstrated as perfectly as possible when talking to raze, and he admitted it.

Palestinians aren't, in fact, entitled to taking an oppressed minority's homeland because muh double standards say settler colonialism is morally wrong when not done by the US.

[gambler]

33 minutes ago, numbersinarow said:

You aren't capable of engaging with my arguments. Do you use reddit/quora?

What you are quoting is me saying Jews are an oppressed minority which I demonstrated as perfectly as possible when talking to raze, and he admitted it.

Palestinians aren't, in fact, entitled to taking an oppressed minority's homeland because muh double standards say settler colonialism is morally wrong when not done by the US.

Reddit and Quora? Where is that coming from? Do you use Reddit and Quora? 
 

Also the quote bolded wasn’t about Jews being oppressed or not oppressed. 
 

In that quote you said we need to support Israelis taking back their land. I assume taking back their land means the West Bank, also known as occupied Palestine, no? 
 

As for the double standard whatever you’re on, I have no idea what you’re saying.

Edited July 28, 2024 by gambler

[gambler]

Also Jews are not victims nor oppressed. This is maximum cringe. 
 

if you meant to say historically oppressed say that instead rather than manipulating language. 

Edited July 28, 2024 by gambler

[numbersinarow]

1 hour ago, gambler said:

Reddit and Quora? Where is that coming from? Do you use Reddit and Quora? 

In that quote you said we need to support Israelis taking back their land. I assume taking back their land means the West Bank, also known as occupied Palestine, no? 

Reddit and parts of quora are sort of the best examples of people being unable to think logically or question the status quo.

That isn't what you said/meant at all, so I am totally confused now. There is no way to interpret what you said except "You think oppressed minorities should take back their band? Then palestinians should." which I responded to.

1 hour ago, gambler said:

Also Jews are not victims nor oppressed. This is maximum cringe. 
 

if you meant to say historically oppressed say that instead rather than manipulating language. 

The history is literally directly relevant to them taking Israel.

And they are oppressed currently because of the mainstream's and UN's double standards against them.

These double standards, which say they can't respond to terrorists while being 10x more moral than most other countries, are based on their country and their race. Even if they aren't based on race, they are based on country. Making them an oppressed minority right now. Trying to use sophistry to get around this is cringey.

+ I will never truly believe that you can't understand what I said about double standards. Just look around you, the whole mainstream stage blue narrative is anti-israel. This isn't even a topic, this is the most obvious given of all.

[gambler]

@numbersinarow

Nice to see you engage in oppression Olympics. You can have that. 

The fact that you have yet to discuss my point that you don’t think Palestinians are entitled to have their own land, and completely ignored what was bolded which was you saying we need to support Israelis taking back their own land (only thing left to take over is occupied Palestinian territories) and the irony that you can’t see your bias in that others are also entitled to their own land (under international law, occupied Palestinian territory is Palestine, which is West Bank and Gaza) and instead went on all these random distractions demonstrates you aren’t someone worth talking to. 

Edited July 28, 2024 by gambler