You cant make an argument on reality

[Alien]

@Leo Gura Damn. Isnt it crazy. After this episode of self deception i really noticed. You cant really claim anything about reality. Not ratiolism, not non-duality, logic or anything. Correct me if I'm wrong. I know its paradoxical because i learned that reality is allegadly nondual although i have not had a direct experience of it. But isnt it sooort of "right" to say that you cant make a claim or "proof" anything in reality? 

[Leo Gura]

Yes, reality is undefined. That is its very nature: Undefinability. Infinity. Freedom.

It must be that way because there is nothing outside of it which can be used to define it with!

See? A definition requires 2 parts: the undefined term + the defining terms. But reality is one. So it can only define itself via itself, which is just begging the question. So it is never really defined. It can merely appear so.

QED

Reality is like a word forever in search of a definition. Every object you look at is unknown and unknowable. Notice this. You don't actually know what anything is! Slapping a label on an object merely gives the illusion of knowledge. But the underlying phenomenon still remains unknown no matter how many labels you slap on it. And the labels themselves are yet more unknown phenomena! So the problem only gets worse with more labels.

[Alien]

@Leo Gura goddamn.... There is no bigger mindfuck than this... And one more question. You always make it seem like people will want to ignore these "radical" ideas. But like you said in one episode, i looove getting my mind fucked over. Is this an exception or am i just lying at myself yet again? ???

[Leo Gura]

@Alien Well, of course, if you're into this work, that already makes you rather exceptional.

My theory is, some people just naturally like to get their mind fucked. Those are the ones who gravitate towards nonduality. I'm like that.

With that said, even though I love a good mindfuck, I also love my ego. So a tug-of-war must happen.

The real test of how much you love a good mindfuck is: if there was a mindfuck so deep the only way you could glimpse it was by killing yourself, would you do it?

The only reason you're gravitating towards it right now is because your mind doesn't really understand the extent of the mindfuck. You like little mindfucks. But you do not like big mindfucks which will totally obliterate you. The big mindfucks will take you totally by surprise, and it's good they do because otherwise you would probably never approach them.

The whole problem here is that you are being asked to kill yourself. And of course you can't want that. 3 billion years of evolution are pushing their finger on the scale. But we can sucker you into it by having you believe that it won't be real death, but just like an mini "ego-death" -- which your mind can rationalize to itself as being "cool" and "good". But, then one day you will discover much to your shock -- No, we were talking about actual death! But then it will be too late. You will already be dead. And you will be pleased. But not in the way you expect.

In other words, we have to use the mind's self-deceptions against itself to escape itself.

 

[Hardkill]

So if I wanted to fly without any device or equipment or airplane then all I have to do is believe that it will happen. Yeah?

[Alien]

@Leo Gura thats heavy, thats deep. Thats.. I dont know what to write here. It just blows my mind and makes me happy that i have found this path. Thank you so much, greetings from lower saxony, Germany ?

[Leo Gura]

@Alien Something tells me you will be extra pleased when you finally glimpse the Absolute

[Hardkill]

If you are ever put on trial, explain to the judge and the jury that you didn't anything wrong because it's just the accuser's perception of his reality.

[Alien]

@Leo Gura i will definitely. Sometimes in my dayli worktraining im doing besides school, i get these little insights that, everything is ok. Im working towards the ultimate destination. I get frustrated here amd there with math and stuff. But this work, even helps me witj school!!!. And when i look at myself from 2016, i can only applaud myself (not being fuckin  selfish here ?) 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Hardkill said:

If you are ever put on trial, explain to the judge and the jury that you didn't anything wrong because it's just the accuser's perception of his reality.

Of course that won't persuade them because they are deluded. So when the execution's axe is just about to slice your neck in half, you can remind yourself, "This is all just a dream." That should take some of the sting out of it.

[Hardkill]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

Of course that won't persuade them. So when the execution's axe is just about to slice your neck in half, you can remind yourself, "This is all just a dream."

Your very last dream ever. 

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, Hardkill said:

Your very last dream ever. 

Or maybe just one out of infinitely many

[egoless]

@Leo Gura What kind of practical implications does the path you have chosen recently has? I mean you are going deeper and deeper into the rabbit hole. What is the ultimate intention here? 

And also why it seems like you are hating on mind and ego lately, as if they were evil and bad. Is not that judging? Why can’t we just find the synergy and balance in everything.

I am offering - maybe, just maybe you are deluding yourself. You went in the rabbit hole much deeper than me so I can’t really judge from my perspective what are you experiencing there. But are you fully aware of your possible delusions and addictions to go infinite?

Edited January 14, 2018 by egoless

[Principium Nexus]

@Leo Gura Imagine that it would be imposible for the system to make laws where nobody is actually doing something wrong. In the end everybody is doing the right thing for themselves. 

[egoless]

2 minutes ago, Principium Nexus said:

@Leo Gura Imagine that it would be imposible for the system to make laws where nobody is actually doing something wrong. In the end everybody is doing the right thing for themselves. 

It is like that! Leos way is not any more right than yours... that’s what I keep repeating

[DocHoliday]

@Alien You're from Lower Saxony? Me too! What a coincidence to find someone on this forum who's so close to me geographically, haha. But yeah, Leo's totally right bruh, even just a glimpse of it will completely turn your life upside down, you can be absolutely sure about that. I certainly don't claim to be fully enlightened but I can say that I've gone quite far down that road and let me tell you...pretty much every year post-enlightenment, you will be like "Who was that guy a year ago?", and then it will even turn into "Who was that guy just a month ago?", even though after a while you will always assume to be on top of the enlightenment-mountain because you think to yourself "How could this even get any better?!", but, it does get better continuously - it practically never stops which is the most beutiful thing about it.  

Edited January 14, 2018 by DocHoliday

[Joseph Maynor]

The Mind can’t wrap itself around reality because reality is always in flux and changing.  It’s like a 2-dimensional model trying to capture a 3-dimensional one.  Ain’t gonna work.  The Mind can only deal with 2-dimensional models.  Now, reality isn’t really a model, so it can’t be subsumed by the Mind.  The Mind likes to pretend reality can be captured under concepts, but this is never gonna work, ever. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t use beliefs.  It just means that our expectations regarding beliefs and our paradigm regarding their function and use is wrong.  Beliefs are not good or bad — it’s how they are clung to that’s good or bad in the present moment.  

Edited January 14, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[SOUL]

I'm not sure I could find a more useless belief for my own experience than this and I don't think I'd try

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Alien Well, of course, if you're into this work, that already makes you rather exceptional.

My theory is, some people just naturally like to get their mind fucked. Those are the ones who gravitate towards nonduality. I'm like that.

With that said, even though I love a good mindfuck, I also love my ego. So a tug-of-war must happen.

The real test of how much you love a good mindfuck is: if there was a mindfuck so deep the only way you could glimpse it was by killing yourself, would you do it?

The only reason you're gravitating towards it right now is because your mind doesn't really understand the extent of the mindfuck. You like little mindfucks. But you do not like big mindfucks which will totally obliterate you. The big mindfucks will take you totally by surprise, and it's good they do because otherwise you would probably never approach them.

The whole problem here is that you are being asked to kill yourself. And of course you can't want that. 3 billion years of evolution are pushing their finger on the scale. But we can sucker you into it by having you believe that it won't be real death, but just like an mini "ego-death" -- which your mind can rationalize to itself as being "cool" and "good". But, then one day you will discover much to your shock -- No, we were talking about actual death! But then it will be too late. You will already be dead. And you will be pleased. But not in the way you expect.

In other words, we have to use the mind's self-deceptions against itself to escape itself.

 

Being addicted to having your mind fucked can be a trap too.  That could cause you to cling to beliefs to achieve said mindfucking.  Better to just watch the Truth.  I’m not really addicted to having my mind fucked.  I’m more interested in acceptance of reality.

[Faceless]

Argumentation in of itself is one of the products of the neurotic, illusory, and deceptive nature of reality. If the totality of reality isn’t grasped then argumentation about one opinion vs another is inevitable. 

It seems that the meaning of reality might not be agreed upon mutually amongst one another. 

What is reality? I will make it a topic.