What If I Ignore Social Barriers. (do They Even Exist)

[Lorcan]

I have noticed.

And I notice this in almost every human interaction.

 

People are indirect in conveying information.  Subtle indirect messages, that leave a lot of room for interpretation. Why can not people make thing a lot simpler by being blunt, speak their mind, say what they want to say. In every interaction, especially in interactions with people that are not close friends. Each party seems to approach each other like one would approach a minefield.  Or Sun Tzu might wage a war against an enemy faction. Deceptive, subtle, In-direct, appearing to the other person as x when you are actually y and appearing as y when you are actually x.

I am guilty of this myself. Why do I this? Why can I not be forthright in every word. There seems to be some social barrier that exists only in my and other peoples minds that stops people from being direct, some sort of filter, make one discreet.

For example, If I were to start a conversation with some random guys I have never talked to before during my lunch break with the aim of extracting value (pleasure) from the conversation. What If I simply said "I want to have a conversation with you guys". This appears to create an awkward ambience.

Something about the directness of that sentence is rejected by the ego is the same way, the ego does want to say what it want, it instead wants to opt for something less direct or even a lie "Hey guys, I am bored, lets talk" or ask a question as an opener " What do you think of you x". Even though your intention with that question was to start a conversation. So why then don't you just say."I want to have a conversation with you guys".

This awkwardness when being forthright with guys is not so bad and is only slight.

Interacting  with the opposite gender while being forthright however appears particularly odd and even taboo.

 

Why is human interaction with the common masses so manipulative, being laconic and direct seems to be a crime to the ego?

 

 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Lorcan

[ajasatya]

@Lorcan do it!

[Moreira]

You cant be blunt and say directy whta you think because you may hurt others. That's called social acuity. The indirect approach is made to calibrate the other person, what can you say to him and what not.

It's a survival instinct. If you see a bald bearded giant in the street yo cant speak what you think: Hey bald dude I want to talk with you. Because you dont even know if he is hostile or friendly.

Once you know him you know if you can make jokes about his ugly bald head or he will beat you.

Dont pre-assume that everybody will be nice with you by default, and the opposite of course.

[Emerald]

12 hours ago, Lorcan said:

I have noticed.

And I notice this in almost every human interaction.

 

People are indirect in conveying information.  Subtle indirect messages, that leave a lot of room for interpretation. Why can not people make thing a lot simpler by being blunt, speak their mind, say what they want to say. In every interaction, especially in interactions with people that are not close friends. Each party seems to approach each other like one would approach a minefield.  Or Sun Tzu might wage a war against an enemy faction. Deceptive, subtle, In-direct, appearing to the other person as x when you are actually y and appearing as y when you are actually x.

I am guilty of this myself. Why do I this? Why can I not be forthright in every word. There seems to be some social barrier that exists only in my and other peoples minds that stops people from being direct, some sort of filter, make one discreet.

For example, If I were to start a conversation with some random guys I have never talked to before during my lunch break with the aim of extracting value (pleasure) from the conversation. What If I simply said "I want to have a conversation with you guys". This appears to create an awkward ambience.

Something about the directness of that sentence is rejected by the ego is the same way, the ego does want to say what it want, it instead wants to opt for something less direct or even a lie "Hey guys, I am bored, lets talk" or ask a question as an opener " What do you think of you x". Even though your intention with that question was to start a conversation. So why then don't you just say."I want to have a conversation with you guys".

This awkwardness when being forthright with guys is not so bad and is only slight.

Interacting  with the opposite gender while being forthright however appears particularly odd and even taboo.

 

Why is human interaction with the common masses so manipulative, being laconic and direct seems to be a crime to the ego?

Small children don't quite have this yet. So, it has to do with the more rigid and high stakes nature of adult social interaction and the particular social standards that our society sets up. We craft our method of socializing to learn to navigate around social taboos such as caring too much. We live in a society that sees apathy and jadedness as a sign of normalcy and even intelligence. So, saying something like, "I want to have a conversation with you guys." is interpreted as try-hard or creepy because we have learned to fake nonchalance to such a high degree that anything less than nonchalance in social interactions with strangers will be interpreted as weirdness and un-trustworthiness. So, because passion is a taboo in our culture and apathy is a sign of normalcy, we tend to confine our social interactions to the standards of "Whatever man... either way, it's cool with me. I don't care." And this makes us feel more comfortable because we've internalized these attitudes. And we are also aware of many dark things now due to the televisions and internet, so we are always on high alert for threatening people to protect ourselves and our family from. So, if you ever meet a person who is super enthusiastic about talking to you right away, it is unusual and therefore interpreted as abnormal and as a potential threat. But this is just in our society that values a loose, passionless attitude toward the vast majority of human interactions. So, we often have to resort to dishonesty and manipulation tactics to uphold this social norm but still be able to make human connections, which is a basic need that's wired into us.

[Guest username]

You don't know much about the other person, so it's important to follow social norms, demonstrate your calibration, trustworthiness, sensitivity to their feelings,etc. before you expect anyone to be open with you. Even then, most intimate relationships don't consist of being completely open and blunt.

There is so much more to communication than just the verbal. The emotional subtext and the vibe are what matters more. Being blunt and uncalibrated often stem from lack of sensitivity to the more subtle layers. 

Do I think we could be more radically honest, literal, and straightforward in an enlightened world? Sure, but even then, I think we'd need to conform to some norms due to the fact that all those aspects of communication are still there and it takes time to build relationships where information can be exchanged more freely. 

[Buba]

Once my female friend sent me a printscreen of a facebook profile of a guy, who wrote about himself that he wants to meet horny women for sex. I said, it is good that he is forthright and does not lie and break hearts of women. She said that, he is just too stupid to lie and be indirect to get a woman. He has a very primitive brain.

[HII]

Hello @Lorcan , thanks bringing this up!

I'm also struggling with this a lot. Luckily, I have some friends who also wish more honesty and frankness for themselves and for the people around them, so together we get the opportunity to practice this on each other a little bit. I'm nowhere near where I would like to be with this, so I take your post as a reminder to work on it more.

It's probably healthy to understand why these social barriers are there. However, if you crave being more honest and frank, you should just try to do so. And if you would like other people to behave more in this way, then this is probably one of those instances where you should be the change you want to see in the world.

I think this is totally possible. You may look at it as a skill which you can train.

Let me give you three examples where I stepped past this barrier and spoke what was on my mind.

1) I was taking a walk by myself and saw two little boys looking at a specific spot somewhere far away. I wondered what they were doing there. Normally I would be way too shy to just speak to strangers like this, but then I thought who cares, these are just two little boys whom I will never meet again anyways and I'm curious about their agenda. So I thought fuck it and asked them what they were looking at. They told me their story and I wished them good luck and they asked what I was up for and they told me to have fun. We said goodbye and I went my way. The specifics of the interaction aren't important, the important thing is that I stepped over my inner barrier and I learned that it wasn't that hard and nothing bad necessarily has to happen from it.

2) I was on a bus, overhearing a conversation of two strangers about a friend of them who got knocked over while sitting in a honey bucket. They were talking about how it was funny but probably inappropriate and they were wondering whether they would do such a thing and what it would be like to be the one in the honey bucket yourself. I didn't want to partake in the conversation, but I thought why not boost their imagination a little and told them to imagine what it would be like to knock over the honey bucket with the door faced down. They were laughing about it and just continued their conversation. Before, I thought it would be weird to step in a conversation of strangers like this, but then I just went with it and it was totally fine.

3) I was at a house party sitting on a bed next to two girls. One of them was moaning about how she didn't manage to hook up with a guy she had been talking to and now she had to go home all by herself. After hesitating a bit, I just said "So, you're looking for someone to hook up with?" They started laughing and the other one said "So you would offer yourself for that?" and I said "Yes". We were all laughing even more and the other girl said "Ok fine, I'll leave you alone then" and she went away. I don't remember how I continued talking to this girl, but we definitely didn't talk much at all and only asked for our names when lying in her bed later.

I can think of many other instances where sometimes I hurt someone or I got hurt myself. But these are always opportunities to learn.

I think the key is to get a good connection to your truth (meaning what you actually think and feel and why) and realize that it is valid in itself. It's fine that you think and feel the way you do, since circumstances just happen to have lead to this and now it is what it is. If you can speak your truth while being detached from a certain outcome and delivering it in such a way that other people won't feel threatened, then everyone will be fine with it in most instances. You can even start with saying that you'd like to say something but you're scared it might be awkward or explain more specifically what you're afraid might happen and why and then maybe it won't even be so awkward anymore to say it after all, because now a context for it has been established. I did this sometimes and it usually worked out well.

Have you looked into "radical honesty"? You could research into this a bit. Or why not start your own journal here about practicing honesty (doesn't necessarily need to be radical at first, you can always start small^^)

 

[Kimasxi]

On 11.10.2017 at 1:08 PM, HII said:

  You can even start with saying that you'd like to say something but you're scared it might be awkward or explain more specifically what you're afraid might happen and why and then maybe it won't even be so awkward anymore to say it after all, because now a context for it has been established. I did this sometimes and it usually worked out well. 

 

This is a very good piece of advice because when you say "I'm scared it migth be awkward" the person who decides (s)he will listen to you anyway then wants to be consistent with what (s)he's just promised you (tolerance, controlling emotions etc.), and at the same time it's easier for you to say it because you are given a social persmission to say it.

[Torkys]

On 10/5/2017 at 2:55 PM, Lorcan said:

People are indirect in conveying information.  Subtle indirect messages, that leave a lot of room for interpretation. Why can not people make thing a lot simpler by being blunt, speak their mind, say what they want to say. [...] Why is human interaction with the common masses so manipulative, being laconic and direct seems to be a crime to the ego?

 

Because of ego, dude. Most people want to defend the image they have put up either consciously or unconsciously - most likely both. When you are in an emotional low and a random not-so-close friend hits you up, you don't want to tell a story about what happened to you, do you?

This can be made "better" with authenticity. Your self-image and your actual "self" will become more and more similar. If you feel like not going around in circles and being manipulative and you are aware of all of this, go for it! Good luck!

Edited November 2, 2017 by Torkys

[Staples]

No, social barriers do not exist. They are an idea.

However, that doesn't stop people from enforcing them. You will alienate yourself if you do what you mentioned in a socially unacceptable way. Just because you recognize they don't exist doesn't mean they no longer hold any value to other people. 

I don't really understand what your goal is in eliminating the "manipulation" that is taking place. Most people have enough social intelligence to know that "What do you think of x?" means that you're interested in sparking up a conversation with them. That's not manipulation. That is recognition of a social context. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Staples