Being Aware Of The "screen" Vs Being The Screen

[Principium Nexus]

Are we just observers of the screen of reality, are we the screen or is the existance of an observer as the observed an illusion?

And how would enlightenment and derealization relate to this phenomena?

From what I have experienced, knowing that you can look at reality like it is a movie screen give great insight, but this is not preferred for long periods because you can get the feeling of watching a movie instead of being in the movie. I think enlightened persons do have insight of knowing that reality can preceived as a screen, but come back to actually being present in the play. They as to say in direct experience of what they do, not reflecting upon what is happening in a second perspective. 

I feel being distant of direct experience is excellent for conceptual thinking and imagination, whereas being in the experience leaves imagination out the picture (then you are all that is, mind and body).

How do you experience this? Is experiencing one or the other more preferred or is it about balance?

[zazed]

If you are the observer of the screen, there is duality. There is you and the screen.
This is a problem if you believe in nonduality. (or have experienced it)

It's my experience that we are the screen, and the screen is aware of itself.
Or basically, we are reality/existence, and this existence is aware of itself.

The thing that we truly are, that experiences our thoughts, or sight, our touch, our feelings. It does not have thoughts, it does not have sight, it does not have feelings. Who is to say what it truly is. In such a construction, there is no information flowing downstream into our human brains.
It is impossible to even know with our human mind/brain if it can only see our physical bodies sight, smell, touch, feelings, thoughts. Perhaps this consciousness is aware of everything, and our human brain/perspective is only aware of its small part in it?

You cannot experience it, you are it. When people ask "how can I experience it", they are asking the question from a perspective of the human experience. This is wrong, the human cannot experience reality. There is enlightenment or being, and there is the human. The human lives within the reality, the reality does not live within the human. Still, people search for lifetimes to find reality or enlightenment within themselves.
You can only let go, and let reality exist as it is. There is nothing left to do, there is nothing to gain, nor anything to lose because you already are part of being.

Like the waves are part of the ocean, a single wave has its perspective that is distinctive from another wave. But it's still just water.
A wave can search all its life for water and never find it. But it is water within, and it is water all around, in fact, the wave's existence is the duality that is not real. Remove this duality, and there is only water, not even the ocean remains.

 

It is my belief, and perhaps I have brushed against it briefly, seen the ox's tail. That there is no individuality, that reality and the experience of it, are one and the same.
 

[Principium Nexus]

@zazed Well said, I fully agree with your statement. One thing I do not fully understand is how we can give identities to other things if we are all one. If we are all one, for example the oceaan, why do the waves still act or think they are seperate from the whole? What gives rise to this illusion of seperation? Is it because we fail to comprehend that we are reality itself?

If someone can answer the question, why do we feel seperation, one would have answered why whole totality exists. Is there any enlightened person why can answer me?

[Joseph Maynor]

@Principium Nexus You are the Truth.  You are the Self.  You are Brahman.  You are the contents of experience stripped of thought.  You are the whole of awareness.  You are the holder of the ego as thought.  You are not the voice.  You are the Truth basking in itself.

Don't think of yourself as the screen, that is concept, belief.  Whatever you are is nothingness.  Pure emptiness.  Emptiness is anti-conceptual.  That's a huge hint.  But all somethingness occurs within emptiness.  So you are all non-conceptual somethingness too.  The Self is God.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Principium Nexus]

@Joseph Maynor I were to ask, what then is truth, but then my mind became silent. Truth seems to be the most prominent when completely silent, because only then the mind is still and fully present.

Thanks for your reply.

[Nahm]

@Principium Nexus you are infinite. You're just getting started. 

[Leo Gura]

@Principium Nexus Being and awareness boil down to the same thing.

The screen is nothing. You are nothing. Everything is known by this nothing. Your job is realize that you are this nothing right now. Which of course means there is no you per se. There is no "who" which percieves this nothing. Nothing just is. Isness is awareness.

This cannot be grasped prior to enlightenment. The grasping of this IS enlightenment. If you could grasp it, you'd already know it and wouldn't be here asking questions. Watch out for the this trap of trying to know before you know. You can't know ahead of time. You can't get a "sneak peak" using your mind. You're trying to cheat. Instead just accept that you don't know for now and patiently self-inquire.

[Principium Nexus]

@Leo Gura I have experienced a complete ego-death, which showed me all that is arises from nothingness. However, I have difficulity putting this knowledge into actual practical use in the ego game. I think trying to explain/understand what it is on a intellectual level will only make me walk in circles and will do the opposite of becoming enlightened.

Isn't the purpose of self-enquiry ultimately to understand that one should stop seeking? Like going full circle to realize one already is and that all external theory will bring you further from the truth? Or is there no such thing as truth at all?

Edited July 21, 2017 by Principium Nexus

[Joseph Maynor]

@Principium Nexus Correct.  You can be aware of thoughts as things from an existential standpoint, but when you get sucked into their stories in the existential standpoint, that's where you get sucked into delusion.  Does this make sense?

One thing I am doing is trying to only acknowledge the thoughts as things, but using awareness to not allowing the thought-stories to send my awareness down idiotic rabbit-holes.  All the rabbit-holes cause suffering because you have no control anyway.  But you gotta be careful.  Only use awareness.  Do not try to control.  All control is egoic illusion.  Just be super mindful of what thoughts are when the monkey-mind starts throwing them at you.  Separate the Truth of the thoughts from the illusory thought-story part.

Watch this video.  It's great and explains this.

Also watch this one.

 

Edited July 21, 2017 by Joseph Maynor

[Nahm]

@Principium Nexus

3 hours ago, Principium Nexus said:

Are we just observers of the screen of reality, are we the screen or is the existance of an observer as the observed an illusion?

 

The observer, the screen, the existence are all illusionary. The air you're breathing is illusionary. Consider who is actually doing the breathing. On a really good note,  it's your illusion. You're doing it, in the illusion you get to experience all this and not know that you're doing it. When you "die" you'll be the infinite you again, alone. No worries though, because you can do this shit anytime you want. If you like, you can even be born as a baby and have no knowledge of any of what I (you) just wrote. 

 

And how would enlightenment and derealization relate to this phenomena?

You are the one. You see people and they don't know they are the one. There is no derealization or phenomena, that is illusionary. In reality you are the One, and you are Alone. It's ok though because you are infinite, I mean look around, you're doing this right now. It's pretty cool. 

From what I have experienced, knowing that you can look at reality like it is a movie screen give great insight, but this is not preferred for long periods because you can get the feeling of watching a movie instead of being in the movie. I think enlightened persons do have insight of knowing that reality can preceived as a screen, but come back to actually being present in the play. They as to say in direct experience of what they do, not reflecting upon what is happening in a second perspective. 

You are close to enlightenment, so savor these moments. Do you have kids? Do you wish you could snap your fingers and they would be adults? Of course not. Just love. Let go and LOVE!  ALL. IS. WELL. 

I feel being distant of direct experience is excellent for conceptual thinking and imagination, whereas being in the experience leaves imagination out the picture (then you are all that is, mind and body).

You make these lines so fast you barely notice you are making them. 

How do you experience this? Is experiencing one or the other more preferred or is it about balance?

Balance. The Middle Way. These are terms for the sweet spot, which is being everything while you are one miscellaneous 'person'. It's rather beautiful, don't you think?

 

[Ananta]

7 hours ago, Principium Nexus said:

I have experienced a complete ego-death, which showed me all that is arises from nothingness. However, I have difficulity putting this knowledge into actual practical use in the ego game.

That's because the knowledge from the experience has not been fully assimilated into your life. This can take years. Basically, you take the knowledge of your true identity and meet every phenomenal moment with that Self-knowledge. It's called Nididhyāsanam.

[zazed]

 

14 hours ago, Principium Nexus said:

One thing I do not fully understand is how we can give identities to other things if we are all one.

This is a question from the perspective of the human experience again. The human can never become enlightened.
You can never understand, don't try to understand it, try to let go of it.

These identities are the dream, you as a human creates these identities. But the dream actually has no substance, it is nothing as @Leo Gura says.
What is dreaming the dream is what is nothing, and this nothing is big-you. This dream just is, everything is the dream.

It's why enlightenment is a leap. You do not become enlightened, you do not even grasp it as a person/human. The human can try to understand it, as many do. But what is typing here, my person will never be enlightened, this is why it is all so confusing. Consciousness has no language to communicate with, so all the teachings of it are just a poor signpost to a concept that defies words. Not a single sage, as you see him/her walking around, was ever enlightened. They are allowing consiousness to be aware through them.
 

13 hours ago, Principium Nexus said:

However, I have difficulity putting this knowledge into actual practical use in the ego game

So have I . People cannot step out of the dream(ego game) because they are the dream. Big-you has to let go of the human as the dreamer and realize it is the dreamer and not the human. Everything you think/see/touch/hear/smell/feel is from the experience of the human, and none of this can help becoming consciousness. Knowledge can only point you towards enlightenment, you have to let go of the dream, by various meditation techniques to find it. This realization is ego-death, it is a kind of letting go of a burden and dropping it completely. Once you stop trying to make sense of it, it will start making sense, it will lose its importance too. It is not important, you cannot do life wrong, you just are, nothing is required of you here.

Naming it, defining it, creates duality. Thinking about it creates duality. Only techniques such as mindfulnes (and others) are helpful, and you need no pre-existing understanding aside from how to do the technique. All of what i said is bullshit, it is all mental mastrubation i should not be doing, I should just sit down and become.

When meditating, do not think about it, do not visualize, do not project ideas. Gently fall into it, let the mind be still, perhaps be curious without any expecations about what you will find. You must just see what is. Because you cannot know, you cannot imagine the truth of nothing. The biggest danger is mediation with an expectation/imagination of what you are supposed to find, because you will create an illusion. You will create a false dream of enlightenment, this is far easier than enlightenment, and done by 99.9% of all meditators. So all of this is useles to you, because i have just given you concepts that will only be a detriment to consiousness becoming aware of itself. Your ego will conjure up concepts from this thread during your next meditation session, and you will be stuck because of me, sorry  

It is called nothing, some call it the Tao or Dao, it is called God, Ishvara, Allah. It is called enlightenment, consciousness, awareness, being, existence.
It is called the dreamer, and it is called the dream.

TLDR : Just be

[zazed]

13 hours ago, Principium Nexus said:

I think trying to explain/understand what it is on a intellectual level will only make me walk in circles and will do the opposite of becoming enlightened.

Basically, you can never know on an intelectual level what you truly are. Don't try to understand it, try to not care about understanding it. Because this intelectual level is part of the dream, it is part of what you are not. So you can only know what you are not on an intelectual level. Because what you are not, is all you can hope to understand. What you truly are defies understanding. 

[Shanmugam]

6 hours ago, Anna1 said:

That's because the knowledge from the experience has not been fully assimilated into your life. This can take years. Basically, you take the knowledge of your true identity and meet every phenomenal moment with that Self-knowledge. It's called Nididhyāsanam.

Swami Satchidanandendra saraswathi explains what is nididhyasana and also quotes verses from Shankara, Gaudapa Karika and Gita which give instructions on how to practice nididhyasana.. And this differs from what is being taught by other teachers. By Nididhyasana, he means actual meditation (similar to yogic and jhana meditations).

But this  is usually mentioned as a purification method by other Vedanta teachers (as a means of achieving the four fold qualifications).

Here is Swami's explanation:

"The aim of the one practicing sustained meditation (nididhyasana) is different. He tries to attain direct vision of reality (here in this very world) by turning his mind away from all else. And there is the difference — as against upasana — that after the rise of knowledge nothing further remains to be done.

It is this sustained meditation that is referred to at Katha Upanishad I.ii.13 by the name 'Adhyatma Yoga'. In the Gita it is sometimes called 'Dhyana Yoga' (e.g. XVIII. 52). In the Mandukya Karikas it is called 'restraint of the mind' (G.K.III.41, etc.). Its nature is described there in that latter work.

Everywhere its result is described in the same way as right metaphysical knowledge, and from this comes immediate liberation.

And here are the citations provided

1. The wise man comes to know God through mastering Adhyatma Yoga, and gives up joy and sorrow. (Katha I.ii.12)

Sankara's Commentary:

Mastering Adhyatma Yoga: Adhyatma Yoga means withdrawing the mind from objects and concentrating it on the Self. Having meditated on the deity, the Self, through attainment of Adhyatma Yoga, the wise man gives up joy and sorrow because there are no gradations of value in the Self.

2.  'He is seen by those of subtle vision through their subtle minds' says the Veda (Katha I.iii.12), pointing out that the highest state of Vi§nu is difficult to attain. Then the same text goes on to teach yoga as the means to attain it, in the words 'The wise man should dissolve the senses into the mind and should dissolve the mind into the intellect. He should dissolve the soul into the great self and he should dissolve that into the Self that is pure peace' (Katha I.iii. 13).

That is, he should first give up the use of speech and the other organs of action and perception and should remain iden tified with the lower aspect of the mind alone. He should then note that the lower aspect of the mind, too, has defects such as an inclination towards the sense objects and unsteadiness in its decisions, and he should dissolve it into that higher aspect of mind (buddhi) which has fixed determination for its nature and is sometimes known by the technical term 'intellect' (vijnana). He should refine the intellect and resolve it into 'the great self, the experiencer or apex of the intellect. The 'great self, however, must be dissolved in the 'Self that is pure peace', the supreme Spirit that is the subject of the section, the summit of human experience.

 - Shankara (Brahma Sutra Bhasya I.iv.l  (the whole second point above is Shankara's commentary on Brahma sutras)

3. Resorting to dispassion, always intent on the Yoga of Meditation (Dhyana Yoga). (Bh.G. XVIII. 52)

Sankara's Commentary:  

Meditation means dwelling on the true nature of the Self. Yoga means one-pointed concentration on the Self. He who is intent on 'Dhyana' and 'Yoga' thus defined is the one 'intent on the Yoga of Meditation'. The use of the word 'always' is to show that he has no other duties, such as daily repetition of the Vedic verses.

4. That yoga should certainly be practiced with resolute mind. Giving up without exception all desires that come from individual will, restraining the sense-organs on every side through the mind, one should gradually withdraw from all activity, with will and intellect firmly controlled; keeping the mind fixed on the Self, one should not think of anything.

Wherever the fickle mind wanders , one should bring it back and fix it on the Self alone, under firm control. Supreme joy comes to such a yogi, whose mind is at perfect peace, whose lusts have subsided, who is sinless and who has become the Ab solute. Such a yogi, free from all sin, always controlling his mind in this way, easily attains the supreme joy of con tact with the Absolute. With his mind controlled through yoga, he sees himself in all beings and all beings in his own Self, seeing the same everywhere.  (Bh.G. VI. 23-9)

Sankara' s Commentary: '

Seeing the same everywhere' is said of one who has the same undifferentiated vision or knowledge of unity and identity with the Absolute and the Self in regard to all things of different grades, from Brahma to the beings of the vegetable and mineral realms. (Bh.G.Bh.VI.29)

5. The mind must be restrained tirelessly, as if one were emptying the sea with the tip of a blade of grass. One must resort to special means to restrain the mind when it is dispersed amid desires and enjoyments. The mind must also be awakened and held in restraint even when it is perfectly calm in the dissolution of dreamless sleep. Mere dissolution in dreamless sleep is no better than desire (since it is also the seed of future worldly experience).

One restrains the mind from desires and enjoyments by remembering 'All is pain'. When one remembers 'All is the Unborn (the Absolute)', one does not even see what is born. When the mind is drowsy in its practice of yoga one should arouse it, and when it is distracted one should again calm it down. One should know that the mind is soiled with latent impressions, and should not allow it to move when it has attained the state of equilibrium, free from the tendency either to dissolution or distraction.

Even there, one should not savour the joy. One should acquire non-attachment through the discriminative wisdom that sees all joy as born of Ignorance. When the mind, although at first motionless, moves out once more, one should again carefully bring it back to unity. When the mind no longer either undergoes dissolution in dreamless sleep or distraction amidst desires and enjoyments, and it is motionless and without manifestation, then it has reached its state of perfection. It (has reached the state of 'no-mind', G.K.III. 32, and) is the Absolute. (G.K.III. 1-6)

 (G.K means Gaudapada karika.. It was written by Gaudapada, who was Shankara's guru's guru)

 

[Principium Nexus]

@zazed Thank you for commenting. I know the truth deep down, because I am. I know that all is nothing, but it is the mind that keeps making up questions to answer why it exists. For me this will be a life long battle to surrender and tell myself to shut up, that I cannot and will not understand why I am here and that this is also the reason why I am here.

I know no specific technique or philosophy is needed to achieve what I want, but I would like to know which philosophies you like the most. I would like to read about the most common ones and expand my understanding why people believe those things.

 

[cetus]

3 hours ago, zazed said:

Basically, you can never know on an intelectual level what you truly are. Don't try to understand it, try to not care about understanding it. Because this intelectual level is part of the dream, it is part of what you are not

The primary objective of a Zen Buddhist is to be made holistically aware. Knowing that pure consciousness does not awaken through intellectual pursuits, a Zen Buddhist waits patiently for none conceptual insights into the true nature of reality to arise from within.

A frog sits on a rock with no awareness of self and no objective of obtaining anything. As a bug happens to fly by- Zap! the bug gets swallowed without a thought.  That's one enlightened Frog!

1 hour ago, Principium Nexus said:

For me this will be a life long battle to surrender and tell myself to shut up, that I cannot and will not understand why I am here and that this is also the reason why I am here.

This is a persistent little paradox for sure. I witness 'I' happening, but what is witnessing this 'I' happening is not 'I'. 

This is the question that I replied to the post 'Questions to ask Mooji'. = 'Why am 'I' here? In other words 'What is it that remains when nothing should remain?

[zazed]

1 hour ago, cetus56 said:

A frog sits on a rock with no awareness of self and no objective of obtaining anything. As a bug happens to fly by- Zap! the bug gets swallowed without a thought.  That's one enlightened Frog!

I love this analogy, it is wonderful  

But it is not so much that the frog is enlightened. Enlightenment is reality, it is life, it is everything. The frog does not resist reality, it just allows being to unfold. Same for the fly, it does not feel sorry for itself while being eaten. It is resistance that creates ego, it is acceptance of this moment that releases the lower self as a separate self.

Perhaps you could define non-resistance as enlightenment. And consciousness is the reality that is allowed to be by an enlightened one.
It is just language after all, it means what we decides it means  

 

I've always found it fascinating, when you watch a wildlife documentary, like BBC's planet earth. When a young grass-eater is caught by a lion, it just lies down and submits. Not sure if this means anything, but it made me wonder about nature and existence.

 

 

[zazed]

4 hours ago, Principium Nexus said:

For me this will be a life long battle to surrender and tell myself to shut up, that I cannot and will not understand why I am here and that this is also the reason why I am here.

Try not to fight yourself. You do not need yourself to shut up. What is thinking is not you.
You should stop caring about your thoughts so much. And say fuck it, even if the thoughts continue. I was like this in the beginning, and it is a battle that you cannot win, it is fighting thoughts with more thoughts. Trying to put out a fire with fire.

The thoughts are a separate thing, they are part of the dream, why fight them?
It is the battle that makes you tired. Accept these thoughts as part of this body in this dream, and lose interest in them, because they are uninteresting and meaningless. Let the fire burn, and just become the water you truly are, and see what happens to the fire...

You think you want answers, but the you that wants this, is not you to begin with. It is a good way to start, and i was/am like this off-course.
Give up even this desire, give up everything. This desire to stop thinking is just another thought from the ego, giving it strength. It actually defines you as a separate self, and everything that defines you as separate from life is "wrong". Going back to your movie-screen analogy, it is literally one character on the screen fighting with itself, why would the screen be impacted in any way by this? 
There is no meaning or purpose to be had in life. There is nothing but life itself, it just is. I am that i am. The movie is just the movie, it cannot change the movie-screen.

As said before, it is not this body that will become enlightened anyway, so why care so much? 
T'is the caring too much about all the small things, even the attempt at controlling your own thoughts, that is neurotic.
Just, breathe out, and let go of this constant battle we are waging with ourselves, drop your burden.

Also, i am not enlightened, but i have taken long walks in the forest (literally). It is easier to be in nature.

[Principium Nexus]

@zazed Do you think most people are being hijacked by thoughts as to speak? ?

[zazed]

@Principium Nexus Yes exactly, most people think they are their thoughts. so their thoughts are very important.
They think many things, and need to act on these thoughts.

They think they need a girlfriend, they think they need to have vacation, they think they need unhealthy tasty food, they think they need alcohol or drugs as a distraction, they think they need to meditate, they think they need to be enlightened to be happy, they think they need many friends, they think they need less friends, they think they need all these things. And these thoughts usually win, like you cannot just think you want something and let it just be a thought. It really has to happen for most people. Like they have no choice, it's who they are, they thought it, so it must be true.

If you are thirsty or hungry, even that is a thought. One you should usually act on, but also one that can show you how powerful such thoughts can become. They can become so strong, so unbearable, that eating is inevitable, unless you already have reached enlightenment.
I think this may be why fasting has been used to reach enlightenment, because it creates unbearable thoughts to learn to accept.

If you realize your thoughts are not you, that they are not even your thoughts, because you have no thoughts. Basically you realize that they are just thoughts. They lose a lot of power.

Especially these circular thoughts about who we are, and what value we have in society, are just bullshit. They are unrequired and they just make us terribly unhappy. And trying to stop thinking is even worse, because then you are unhappy because you are unable to stop thinking.
Whatever you do with your thoughts, it will fuck you up. Because in the end, it all strengthens the illusion of being a separate self, the ego.

 

In reality, your thoughts are not you, they just come and go.
But to fight them, is just thoughts fighting thoughts. It's again being hijacked by them.