Challenging Leo on women

[Joshe]

 

48 minutes ago, LordFall said:

it seems perhaps actually you're sitting in that stage green bubble where natural hierarchies make you uncomfortable and you refuse to believe there are innate differences between people?

Of couse I'm in stage green! That's been the problem my entire life! I just couldn't understand hierarchies! No matter what I did or how much I contemplated, I just couldn't understand hierarchies for the life of me! lol. 

Quick question for you: Which stage is hierarchy most conscious? Is that "orange"? 

It's actually funny to even think about if you wanted to compare your understanding of humans to mine systematically, that your understanding would make mine look inferior. 

I had higher hopes for you kid. 

[Joshe]

6 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@Joshe are you asking @LordFall to reverse engineer / derive your arguement from the conclusion you stated? 

No, I said I'd explain it all in the future but it's complicated and would take some work. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Joshe cool please do, I was following along.

[Joshe]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

Rest up, and when your head is clear, feel free to elaborate more on your points. I think it's a worthwhile topic to explore and not just take Leo's word on it. Models can either survive the stress test or by invalidating them we can find an even superior model. To be honest though throughout this exchange so far you've mostly solidified to me how solid the predictive ability of spiral dynamics is. 

thanks bro. I'll come back when I'm clear

[Joshe]

Sorry if I was disrespectful. 

[aurum]

Development ain't an equal opportunity endeavor.

There are many factors that give people developmental advantages and disadvantages.

[Joshe]

49 minutes ago, aurum said:

Yellow is primarily about radical multi-perspectivalism, even beyond the pluralism of Orange / Green.

This is not at all something humans are just born with.

Bullshit. I was born with it. And the implication is that I was "born into yellow". This has massive problems for the model. I wasn't "born into yellow". I was born with a "predisposition". It doesn't make me special. I dont't get to claim some higher level development because of it. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@aurum have your observations and interactions on the forum contributed material for your work ( book ). I am quite interested 🙂 

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Bullshit. I was born with it. And the implication is that I was "born into yellow". This has massive problems for the model. I wasn't "born into yellow". I was born with a "predisposition". It doesn't make me special. I dont't get to claim some higher level development because of it. 

You could be born with a predisposition that helps you develop into Yellow.

That's not a contradiction.

But a predisposition you are born with is definitely not equivalent to Yellow development by itself.

[aurum]

9 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@aurum have your observations and interactions on the forum contributed material for your work ( book ). I am quite interested 🙂 

100%.

I learn from everyone here.

The book is coming out very soon, so I will likely be sharing more about it.

[Joshe]

32 minutes ago, aurum said:

But a predisposition you are born with is definitely not equivalent to Yellow development by itself.

You have called me stage green previously (which was funny as hell because I've never been anything like  green). But if I can predict humans better than you, what makes you at stage yellow, or above, better than me at whatever stage I'm at it?

What separates us?

If I have deeper knowledge of human psychology and human systems than you do, how am I in some way lower on your spiral?

Edited 3 hours ago by Joshe

[Joshe]

the only reasonable answer is "emotionality" 

😂😂😂

Edited 3 hours ago by Joshe

[aurum]

5 minutes ago, Joshe said:

You have called me stage green previously (which was funny as hell because I've never been anything like  green). But if I can predict humans better than you, what makes you at stage yellow, or above, better than me at whatever stage I'm at it?

What separates us?

If I have deeper knowledge of human psychology and human systems than you do, how am I in some way lower on your spiral? 

I don’t grant that you have greater predictive ability or understanding of human psychology.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

54 minutes ago, aurum said:

100%.

I learn from everyone here.

The book is coming out very soon, so I will likely be sharing more about it.

Fucking sweet, please announce when it's released 🥰

[Joshe]

17 minutes ago, aurum said:

I don’t grant that you have greater predictive ability or understanding of human psychology.

But say I did. Would that complicate anything? Because I’d put money that my models are more accurate than yours. And what if I could prove it? 

What I want to know is, what makes your systematizing different than mine?

[Joshe]

Of course there’s no reasonable answer to that question. which is why there will be none. And that is the answer, 

Edited 2 hours ago by Joshe

[Schizophonia]

18 hours ago, LordFall said:

That's only two examples but it's so common, even a lot of dominant men are known to enjoy letting go of control behind closed doors and a lot are attracted to dominant women and literal femdoms due to this peculiar psychology. 

No it's a myth, it's actually the opposite.

Cold make you crave heat, sport makes you crave rest, and lack of controll make you crave controll it's logical. A man who is already very controlling ultimately won't want to go back to that; he’ll want the opposite. People who like being dominated are chaotic people; trapped in a feminin/hysterical subjectivity. 

"Controll" is a trategy to eleminate castration anxiety (if you do what is supposed to do, if you submite to the symbolic order as Lacan would say, their is no reason to be castrated, fail) and so get closer to phallic position; and in a such position what will be projected (libido = projection) will be submission of someone (to you).

That's why masculin neurosis is said "obsessive". @Emerald said somewhere people here says she is masculin; i's because instead of surrendering to the phallus (the "external") to assuage castration anxiety, she seeks directly to inhibit it through a cold writing style, her veganism, etc. 

That doesn't make her a lesbian though lol; obsessional neurosis is not phallic. Intuitively everyone knows that a rigid vegan man (i dont talk about emerald anymore here) is not particularly virilesince the neurotic mechanism is fundamentally rooted in excessive castration anxiety, yet it nonetheless "covers" that anxiety.

Aggression can be viewed as a form of domination, but behind this is precisely the feeling of being castrated. I'm agresive because i feel castrated by someone else/something it's logical, and the more you feel castrated in the everyday life the more the phallus is projected. An estrogen-rich woman be aggressive yet simultaneously desire submission in order to regain the sensation of possessing the phallus. A very calm, hearty-eating man might appear placid perhaps overly nice yet have no reason to seek power elsewhere; consequently what gets projected is the lack of a phallus, and he will want to "insert" it. Libido is a game of reaffirming your symbolic position, positions in other's desire; it's a conditionning.

Fundamentally the masculine position is "perverse"; it is a matter of denying castration. That’s why dangerous activities are intuitively associated with men, and why paying too much attention to one’s health or whatever elsei s often seen as "gay".

 

Smoking cigars, drinking moonshine, driving monster trucks, and cracking crude redneck-style jokes = Masculin position, tend to be perverse.

 

Wearing white shirts with the sleeves rolled up, drinking vegan soup "because I read some studies," using the word "problematic," voting Democrat (or even goofy ideas held by right-wing castrati, like being a royalist lol, i'm trolling but castration exists across all the spectrum) = Obessive neurosis; preference for the masculine/phallic position but higher anxiety castration ((because less androgynous, more conflict-ridden relationship with the father, traumas?...), so I suppress my desire so as not to end up castrated. Can be masculine but more versatile, with more stranges fantasies involving a dominant/submissive split, depending on the moment or context.

 

Hypersensitivity, which can manifest as aggression, pettiness, rumination, etc = hysterical neurotic, who is fixated on the idea of being the object of the other (the other being the one who possesses the phallus).

If you are a corporate executive speaking harshly to a subordinate, the underlying sadistic drive is essentially to become an object for that employee to occupy space in their inner world. Fundamentally this is no different from a woman applying makeup and perfume to occupy space in *your* inner world; the strategy is simply different. 

If you want to appropriate someone's subjectivity (whether through feminine perfume or, negatively, through aggression), it means that in your game, it is *he* who holds the phallus.

A men's fragrance tends to have a scent that "calls to order" conveying an impression of power, strength, "lack of castration" whereas a women's fragrance tends to possess a scent that, for some reason, signifies castration, thereby inviting the person playing the role of the phallus to "plunge into it."

It is the same dynamic at play with garter belts lol or to provide a non-sexual context with why we are more afraid of (or pay closer attention to) beehives or insects with striped patterns, or why taking high doses of LSD causes one to see alternating black and white lines. These are objects that tend to disrupt representation (the combination of symbolization and the application of affect and imagination in general) and thus automatically trigger heightened attention, and by extension fear or excitement depending on the context.

The same goes for strong alcohol, chili peppers, cheese, extreme sports, and various things associated with masculinity or higher testosterone levels.

The masculine accepts castration as an object because it is what propels him into the phallic position. He who rejects castration, who cannot handle it plunges into castration anxiety. He who refuses to have his arm amputated (to handle symbolic castration; the entry into a world that is limited, relative, and dualistic; the fall from infantile narcissism as Lacan would put it) in order to avoid pain cannot quickly return to productivity, strength, to the "phallus" in other words and will instead remain preoccupied with the prospect of castration ("Oh no I'm going to have my arm cut off, blah, blah, blah..."), thus remaining within a feminin subjectivity.

Hence the notion of hypergamy that one hears so much about these days: women look "upward" (at the phallus that rises above, that resolves their issues), whereas men look at what *they* can fix (meaning looking rather "downward", since once again libidinaly looking too high up would likely result in humiliation or castration).

I sometimes run into gay men at work and they have a distinct energy that intuitively makes one want to "bottom" for them, not literally lol but rather to speak to them in a deeper, more assertive voice for exemple. Most of the gay men I’ve encountered seemed to be "missing something" a void reflected in their energy and appeared more sensitive or even prone to depression.

Edited 2 hours ago by Schizophonia