If genetics determines us so much, why self-help?

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@StaraX If effort isn't a guarantee, what is its actual causal contribution?

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, StaraX said:

So, in other words, all the so-called “wisdom” about mindset, thinking patterns, inner game, etc. means very little.  

That does not follow.

But mindset cannot overcome a serious health problem.

[Lucasxp64]

15 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@StaraX If effort isn't a guarantee, what is its actual causal contribution?

He has abandoned causal relationships to lean into genetic fatalism. He might have just chosen that there is an evil demon haunting him and it would have been the same.

He thinks that financial market and academic results are a perfect 1:1 correlation with some unknown every-present variable: i.e. a demon, genetics, etc.

Due to those things being so complex, and by taking a bell curve shape of human genetic variation, I'd bet that genetics are not his major limiting factor with regards to the comparisons he just made.

Even the difference between his results and of the comparisons he made might be much smaller than what he thinks, but he's too close to see it.

He is looking at genetic determinism as being binary, as it being 100% of the equation.

Edited 20 hours ago by Lucasxp64

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Lucasxp64 Reality is usually more complex and nuanced than it seems. A simple explanation feels so lovely and neat. Very appealing. But usually to access that simplicity we need to compress and fill the gaps with "belief".

[StaraX]

51 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That does not follow.

But mindset cannot overcome a serious health problem.

@Leo Gura Health is only one area (although probably the most crucial one). I am talking about everything. If a tortoise wants to beat a rabbit in a race, no amount of improvements in inner game, confidence, or mindset will help him.

There are professors like Jordan Peterson who have empirical evidence showing the relationship between IQ scores and the ability to perform tasks, as well as the relationship between IQ and success in high school and college. And also how having an average or below-average IQ limits you and how you can do nothing about it. Jordan Peterson has empirically proved this. As a matter of fact, I've discovered that the self-esteem of many people in my social circle and at my workplace has been almost destroyed because of those statements.

If someone's dream is to become a computer scientist with a slightly below-average IQ, which is closer to the truth: Peterson's empirical research or your 2015 video called "How To Study - The Keys To Acing School And College"? I still remember watching that episode more than 10 times when I was 16, lol.

I know it's difficult to relate when this stuff was relatively easy for you.

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, StaraX said:

There are professors like Jordan Peterson who have empirical evidence showing the relationship between IQ scores and the ability to perform tasks, as well as the relationship between IQ and success in high school and college. And also how having an average or below-average IQ limits you and how you can do nothing about it. Jordan Peterson has empirically proved this.

For being a self-help-oriented psychologist-guru, JP sure makes a hell of a good job creating customers in sore need of his advice.

Firstly, Jordan Peterson has done zero studies on whether IQ can be increased or not. He has merely purported to have read the literature. Secondly, the studies on brain training like N-Back training are underestimated because they practically speaking inevitably use unmotivated and unknowledgeable /untrained /uncoached individuals (but even then, they show non-negligible increases).

You also have to understand that JP is very pessimistic because he is essentially looking for a miracle cure for mentally disabled people. But if you're looking for going from say a standard college graduate in terms of IQ (115 IQ) to a stellar one (125 IQ or above), you have much better odds than what JP has made you to believe.

If you are highly motivated to train and you get somebody to teach the techniques (or you're simply motivated to teach yourself the techniques well), you will see great results. There are tons of testimonials on this. Sprint and HIIT training (and also resistance training) also has shown clear increases in IQ-adjacent cognitive metrics (>10% increases).

Also something as simple as filling a nutritional hole (calcium is for example one often completely neglected example for cognitive functioning) can take you from debilitating brain fog to pristine mental clarity. Something like a food allergy/sensitivity the same.

Edited 16 hours ago by Carl-Richard

[Lucasxp64]

10 hours ago, StaraX said:

relationship between IQ scores and the ability to perform tasks, as well as the relationship between IQ and success in high school and college. [...]

First of all, there are other factors that are much more important after genetics such as practical things. For example at least here where I live, if I picked a university that is literally on the other city where I must take one bus, a train, then yet another bus excluding the trip back, I might spend 6h in total per day. And that's in a metropolitan area! Tho, to be frank there is more than one university nearby that would take me just a single bus or I could even go by walking.

Imagine making the mistake of choosing to go there, having to spend six fucking hours per day just on transit!!!

That would be way more important than some extra 10 IQ points.

Also, maybe Brazilian students if not most, THEY WORK FULL TIME JOBS while going to university AT NIGHT.

 Just this alone must be such a huge factor in absolutely wrecking people. Let's not even get started with their personal emotion states, and their personal inclinations. If you're somebody that doesn't care much about your area of study you will be everyday having to fight that friction. Most people they simply just have their "dopamine circuit fried" by internet content, drinking too much, wasting too much cognitive energy in unnecessary self-doubt where their minds are just wandering around about all kinds of matters instead of focusing.

People with depression oftentimes cannot get rid of being highly stimulated all the time because if they do, their demons in their head attack them.

How the hell will someone sit down and focus when they got to be highly stimulated all the time due to needing a high base level of stimulation? Of course there can be genetics involved, if so, a lot of people have to use meds, or they need more time meditating, or they require less stimulation, or they require to be put in an environment where they are forced to get stuff done.

Why do you think rich kids with private tutors do better academically? Because they get a nanny to be with them.

There are people that can't walk. They get a wheelchair. They adapt.

Edited 8 hours ago by Lucasxp64

[BlessedLion]

Sure, you are somewhat limited by genetics, but it's far less than you think. Plenty of people have overcome their genetic limitations and crushed it in domains they were told they'd never excel at. The universe definitely rewards persistence in life, this is limiting belief for sure.