Relationship Based on Truth, Honesty & Vulnerability

[Miguel1]

This right here is how a mature, sustainable relationship that is healthy and based on honesty is built.

How many of you are capapble of such level dating of dating? How many of you can actually be this honest and vulnerable? How many of you are actually aware of the level of manipulation and projection you do when dating?

I can tell from my experience of dating like this for the past 6 months: painful as fuck. Not a single girl is willing to be Nearly this open, honest and vulnerable. And I go on many dates.

All the PUA dating advices we talk here come nowhere close to what real dating is. PUA is children’s game, albeit a practical one as men are so lonely it is better to get short term intimacy (that often leads to hurting the girl), than nothing.

But this right here is the real adult, mature dating. If Leo were to make a guide on dating based on truth, it would probably resemble this a lot. And so, I would like to hear all the adults of the community commenting on this.

@Emerald @Leo Gura @Natasha Tori Maru and others.

I wonder how far away we are from this kind of dating? Probably 50 years at least.

My dating ”results” is basically 0 because I try to practice this level of honesty and vulnerability as much as possible. Sometimes I get frustrated, put on my dark game, and pull a girl almost instantly. It is shockening and heartbreaking to know how unconscious humanity is.

I am writing this in a hurry, will check errors and typos later.

Edited 5 hours ago by Miguel1

[Valach]

I am gonna check it out later, thanks for sharing brother. I would like to share a video about dating approach that really resonates with my values:

 

[Miguel1]

I have been studying Naftali Moses’ work the past few months here and there so I haven’t come into full conclusion about his work. But it seems very good.

One of the reasons I share his work here is also to see if there’s blindspots I have missed.

I will most likely share his work more here coming up.

The guy was like 24-25 years old in this podcast and currently like 26-27, and the maturity, vulnerability and honesty he expresses is at least of someone 10 years older than him. He is by no means perfect though, so don’t get the wrong impression. Just very impressive for his age.

He had exceptional parents (not sure how conscuous), and pulled him out of Jewish school at the age of 8, because they knew it was wrong and solely conformity and group-think. He was home schooled and allowed to study whatever his heart wanted to, and it lead to psychology from a very early age.

Funnily enough, he does also have a background in PUA when he was younger. But he quickly saw through it and moved on to higher level dating.

Currently, he works as a coach to help his clients face their inner demons, shadows and weakneses, so they can built something based on strenght, honesty and realness.

https://youtube.com/@naftalimoses

Edited 5 hours ago by Miguel1

[Raze]

@Miguel1 Do you still have a YouTube channel? 

[Lyubov]

There isn’t complete certainty in any relationship. The only thing I believe one can really try to do on their end is communicate openly and honestly while honoring your own flow and authentic way. I don’t believe in vulnerability. I think it’s an illusion. What are you vulnerable to? What are you trying to keep safe? The relationship ending? Them saying something mean to you or withholding signs of approval and love? All of that traces back like a loose thread and culminates in some untrue belief like “I am not enough when my partner _________” or “I am unlovable because ________.” These beliefs are false. The ego / inner child creates this illusion that it needs to be in control with every step of change and every part of the relationship, like every step of the way and every moment in life this lens we retreat into because of the illusion of safety it grants like there is something to protect but the whole premise the word implies is faulty in the first place. You cant be emotionally safe, it doesn’t even make sense when you are the one creating your emotions in the first place. Relationship basically rest on being aligned in your innate spiritual value and acting in Wu Wei with honest communication. Reading books on how to communicate in a non violent way (nonviolent communication for example is a great book) is a great resource for how to communicate in relationships. From there it’s then finding the harmony between two people and accepting when that is not the case.

[LordFall]

I think it's an interesting topic but I'm not sure what angle to come at it from. Tell me if I'm off but personally when I hear wanting to connect based on truth, vulnerability and honesty to me that just means wanting to lead with your pain and wanting a woman that tolerates that and have a you two against the world type of dynamic. 

I had that with my ex and she accepted me and helped through my life troubles and it was a very healing and comfortable experience and even though the relationship devolved into a toxic mess it encompasses most of my most cherished life experiences thus far. 

Having said that most of the reason that relationship fell apart is I was not the man I want to be and was not able to guide both of our lives to a mutually beneficial destination. To me leadership and offering value are much more core to a relationship experience than honesty and vulnerability. If you are non-judmental and ask deep questions about a girl you will get most of her thoughts and anxieties, and traumas and hopes and dreams pretty quickly; I think that's great for bonding and is core to a high quality relationship. When she tells you all her insecurities and fears and hopes you still need to be the man to help her conquer that and build a great life for herself.

A lot of people share the same anxieties about the world and the economy and the weird political situation. I guess you could bond over that and be authentically anxious on a date but that doesn't seem like the point of dating. Life is hard and has been for millennials, we have to overcome that and set ourselves up to be in a good position to support ourselves and a family in adulthood and then find a compatible partner once that's done. I don't know what you're personally vulnerable and open about but for most men their insecurities and hangups are gonna be around not being as successful as they want to be and I'm not sure how being transparent about that early on can help your dating life. I would work on fixing the fundamentals of your life first and then start dating from a position of strength afterwards even if you have to spend a few months or years intentionally single as a result. 

To me that's what I'm personally working on and what's caused a pause in my dating life since I'm not really in a position to be able to be a true asset for the lives of the high quality women I want to date. I'm building my business and still socializing building a social circle but it's not really with the aim to hitch a girl at this current time, it's more for the women me in 1-2 years will be able to invite into my lifestyle. 

Edited 4 hours ago by LordFall

[aurum]

@Miguel1 

I think you know some of my thoughts on this.

It sounds like you are organizing your dating life around maximal disclosure. For you, the more vulnerability and openness, the better.

That is not how I think about dating.

Disclosure needs strong boundaries, especially during the early stages of meeting someone. You don't just dump everything on them. You should be selective with what you share. I do not consider that discernment a violation of truth.

[Valach]

27 minutes ago, aurum said:

@Miguel1 

I think you know some of my thoughts on this.

It sounds like you are organizing your dating life around maximal disclosure. For you, the more vulnerability and openness, the better.

That is not how I think about dating.

Disclosure needs strong boundaries, especially during the early stages of meeting someone. You don't just dump everything on them. You should be selective with what you share. I do not consider that discernment a violation of truth.

Why do you think you should be selective with sharing yourself with other?

[LordFall]

18 minutes ago, Valach said:

Why do you think you should be selective with sharing yourself with other?

It shows social skills, competence and responsibility. We all have our struggles and pains of existence. If someone leads with my life sucks and here are 5 reasons why for the sake of vulnerability and honesty I would say they're falling into being dysfunctionally needy as opposed to particularly developed.

Emotional control is part of emotional intelligence and means that you are able to compartmentalize even when things are not perfect. Not for the sake of living a persona or isolating yourself from genuine connection but to put your best foot forward when looking for compatible life companions. Most personal pain is universal, you don't need to tell partners on the first few dayes about your anxieties about life they probably feel it too. It should come up organically but if you are not a person that can help them navigate the dark parts of life and are overly anxious yourself to find a partner to cope with then of course that's not a great strategy to date. 

Self-regulation is a quality of healthy and mature adults. 

Edited 1 hour ago by LordFall

[Valach]

6 minutes ago, LordFall said:

It shows social skills, competence and responsibility. We all have our struggles and pains of existence. If someone leads with my life sucks and here are 5 reasons why for the sake of vulnerability and honesty I would say they're falling into being dysfunctionally needy as opposed to particularly developed.

Emotional control is part of emotional intelligence and means that you are able to compartmentalize even when things are not perfect. Not for the sake of living a persona or isolating yourself from genuine connection but to put your best foot forward when looking for compatible life companions. Most personal pain is universal, you don't need to tell partners on the first few dayes about your anxieties about life they probably feel it too. It should come up organically but if you are not a person that can help them navigate the dark parts of life and are overly anxious yourself to find a partner to cope with then of course that's not a great strategy to date. 

Self-regulation is a quality of healthy and mature adults. 

Self regulation is not the same thing as hiding truth of yourself from someone. You can share honestly your truth, even if it is painful from a place of self acceptance and not to get soothed by the other party. Furthemore if your life sucks so much, why are you even on the date in the first place.

I am not saying to tell a list of your worst qualities within the first 10 minutes of a date. But also pretending like you have it all together while you are aware that you do not does not lead to anything good in my experience.

[LordFall]

10 minutes ago, Valach said:

Self regulation is not the same thing as hiding truth of yourself from someone. You can share honestly your truth, even if it is painful from a place of self acceptance and not to get soothed by the other party. Furthemore if your life sucks so much, why are you even on the date in the first place.

I am not saying to tell a list of your worst qualities within the first 10 minutes of a date. But also pretending like you have it all together while you are aware that you do not does not lead to anything good in my experience.

Totally. I just wanted to emphasize that total disclosure for the sake of being a real and authentic person is not really effective nor the sign of a mature individual. 

I think you can be charming and confident while not making stuff up about yourself and still presenting yourself like a cool guy if you don't have your life all figured out yet. That's the furthest I can go in terms of generalizations though, @Miguel1 is gonna have to elaborate on the exact issues he's facing in terms of people not being authentic or not responding well to his vulnerability. 

I named one possibility in my comment being that perhaps he's feeling financially insecure and not confident in his career and feels that partners should accept him regardless on dates and that's where the topic of honesty and vulnerability is coming from. That's just one option and perhaps I'm wrong and he's sitting on 500k and it's another issue entirely. If we keep these discussions very vague it's impossible to accurately offer insight or diagnose issues and produce actual breakthroughs in our lives which is hopefully the goal here. 

Edited 59 minutes ago by LordFall

[Valach]

3 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Totally. I just wanted to emphasize that total disclosure for the sake of being a real and authentic person is not really effective nor the sign of a mature individual. 

I think you can be charming and confident while not making stuff up about yourself and still presenting yourself like a cool guy if you don't have your life all figured out yet. That's the furthest I can go in terms of generalizations though, @Miguel1 is gonna have to elaborate on the exact issues he's facing in terms of people not being authentic or not responding well to his vulnerability. 

Effective in what? This still signals you operate within a paradigm focused on how to get the person (aka get validated) instead of how to express yourself freely. 

[Miguel1]

4 hours ago, Raze said:

@Miguel1 Do you still have a YouTube channel? 

I took it down a while back as I started to feel too misaligned with what I was coaching people on. It was too orange and short-term results orientated. Right now I am in a transitioning phase.

I need my work to become much more integrous, integrated and aligned -- yet somehow in a way that still reaches people, as I need it to generate money as well.

I believe I am going to transition into some sort of a mix of Naftali Moses' work, dance therapy, basic social skills and little bit of Teal Swan + Actualized.org. But it has to remain practical, so it will remain within the human relationship niche.

[LordFall]

3 minutes ago, Valach said:

Effective in what? This still signals you operate within a paradigm focused on how to get the person (aka get validated) instead of how to express yourself freely. 

Calibration in your expression is very important in dating. I think it's a stage green trap to want to always express yourself freely and be accepted regardless of what comes out. The point of dating is to present yourself as a attractive dating partner for someone that you're interested in. Your mom's is to accept you unconditionally and most moms fall short of that. You got unconditional love for yourself and that's about it, that doesn't even exist in most 20+ year marriages. To have a functional relationships with other adults you need to behave and express yourself in a certain way that is appropriate to the social setting and is adding value to their life otherwise you will have issue dating. 

[Miguel1]

Guys, think of it like this:

If me and you are going to build a sustainable and healthy relationship for the rest of our lives.

What do we need to know about each other? And more importantly, what do we need to know about OURSELVES?

And how are we supposed to find those out, if we don't deep dive into each other's minds?

- - - - -

Life is truly mysterious. I have been struggling with this ever since I broke up from my 5 year relatioship, almost a year ago. I took a long break for me to heal myself, but went on a few dates here and there during this healing process, and now in the past few months of the late spring and the whole of summer, I went on dates more actively.

And, I was struggling with this issue all along. I couldn't properly put things into word. I tried to find answers here on the forum, but got a lot of shit thrown at me for me "being holier than thou".

And then! Naftali appears! And now i don't feel like I am going fucking mad by myself anymore. There are others struggling with this! My God! I can't believe it.

I believe Leo struggles with this too, he is just not as interested in it as I am, for we have almost opposite personality types.

Edited 52 minutes ago by Miguel1

[Valach]

5 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Calibration in your expression is very important in dating. I think it's a stage green trap to want to always express yourself freely and be accepted regardless of what comes out. The point of dating is to present yourself as a attractive dating partner for someone that you're interested in. Your mom's is to accept you unconditionally and most moms fall short of that. You got unconditional love for yourself and that's about it, that doesn't even exist in most 20+ year marriages. To have a functional relationships with other adults you need to behave and express yourself in a certain way that is appropriate to the social setting and is adding value to their life otherwise you will have issue dating. 

The point is not for the other person to accept me, it is for them to see me. By being truthful i am practicing unconditional love - by myself to myself.

[LordFall]

3 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

Guys, think of it like this:

If me and you are going to build a sustainable and healthy relationship for the rest of our lives.

What do we need to know about each other? And more importantly, what do we need to know about OURSELVES?

And how are we supposed to find those out, if we don't deep dive into each other's minds?

You're on the right path my friend. I relate with your journey. Deep diving is great and really fun to do with women especially with some drinks/weed and spending the whole night contemplating the mysteries of the universe. That's how I started dating my first girlfriend.

I think it can be very straight forward and logical though. What it comes down to is what are this person's goals and where are they at in life and how do my own goals and spot in life mix with that? Does it make sense for us to to keep hanging out together over weeks/months/years and does it look like our life will get better as a result or are we incompatible but fuck it lets flirt and she's got some big titties and hopefully I get on those tonight if I say the right things which I believe is what you referred to earlier by dark game which I get. I stopped cold approaching for a couple years because I realized that me and my friends at the time were basically doing Tits or gtfo game where the whole point was to hook the girl and see if she's DTF or not and then next girl if she's not. 

For me personally I appreciate a wide variety of women but my ideal relationship type is like a mentor dynamic or a dom/sub relationship to put it in BDSM terms. For me personally I want to figure out a few more things with my business to be comfortable adopting this frame in relationships because I think a lot of people into BDSM are geeks and sex nerds and don't offer a lot of value and it's not really the life I wanna live. That's my own ideal relationship format and the way I view things, you will have your own. Each of the 16 MBTI type has more or less an ideal relationship type that they're usually most happy with. I'm an INTP so I like systems, to me they feel liberating and safe and I have tried to date more willy nilly and I found it deeply unsatisfying and unsettling each time.

6 minutes ago, Valach said:

The point is not for the other person to accept me, it is for them to see me. By being truthful i am practicing unconditional love - by myself to myself.

They can see you that's great. I think forums and social media are a good place to test more radical forms of openness and vulnerability. Dating is literally an interview though they are seeing if they want to make the effort to keep seeing you repeatedly and you are worth the effort to tangle your life with. I think it's very easy to well romanticize relationships especially on a spiritual forum but basically it's a ruthless life interview with usually only room for one viable candidate out of whole city. 

 

[Miguel1]

People date for years, sometimes even 10+ years and still don't know each other, and what's even more crazy: oftentimes they are STILL not sure about each other as the partner they want for life!

Naftali's philosophy is this: You cannot afford to date 5 years and not know if they are your partner for life.

In a few months you should know! And it's possibly only via truthful, honest and vulnerable conversations.

Most people are afraid of people who have done the deep inner work, shadow work, inner facing work, because the more integrated a person is, the more of a mirror they will become.

And! Only a person who values personal growth, will 1. do the work, and 2. be able to actually APPRECAITE and be attracted (rather than scared and repulsed by) to people  who have done the work.

And! Only these people are Actually able to sit down on the first date, and be completely open, vulnerable and honest.

I believe this is what @Emerald pushes here, and we get in conflict with her because we are still thinking in the domain of PUA.

[Miguel1]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

@Miguel1 

I think you know some of my thoughts on this.

It sounds like you are organizing your dating life around maximal disclosure. For you, the more vulnerability and openness, the better.

That is not how I think about dating.

Disclosure needs strong boundaries, especially during the early stages of meeting someone. You don't just dump everything on them. You should be selective with what you share. I do not consider that discernment a violation of truth.

We talked on the phone about this a while back. Back then I was going at this problem more from the Spiral Dynamics angle. Yes, a stage green girl with a little bit of yellow is ideal -- but as important, if not more important (which we didn't really discuss), is: have they faced themselves? Have they healed their traumas? Have they integrated their shadows and repressions? Are they in touch with themselves? Do they value honesty, truth, self-reflection and personal growth? Are they capable of being vulnerable?

The Teal's work to the Leo's work. The Yin to the Yan. Both are needed to a great degree. No need to be perfect as such a thing doesn't exist. But a great level needs to be achieved.

[LordFall]

2 minutes ago, Miguel1 said:

People date for years, sometimes even 10+ years and still don't know each other, and what's even more crazy: oftentimes they are STILL not sure about each other as the partner they want for life!

Naftali's philosophy is this: You cannot afford to date 5 years and not know if they are your partner for life.

In a few months you should know! And it's possibly only via truthful, honest and vulnerable conversations.

Most people are afraid of people who have done the deep inner work, shadow work, inner facing work, because the more integrated a person is, the more of a mirror they will become.

And! Only a person who values personal growth, will 1. do the work, and 2. be able to actually APPRECAITE and be attracted (rather than scared and repulsed by) to people  who have done the work.

And! Only these people are Actually able to sit down on the first date, and be completely open, vulnerable and honest.

I believe this is what @Emerald pushes here, and we get in conflict with her because we are still thinking in the domain of PUA.

Do you think you are the best option of most women that you go on dates with? Often times being deep can simply be a defence mechanism for not having your shit together and using dating as a distraction from getting money in the bank and figuring out viable cashflow verticals that will allow us to life out our life purposes to their fullest potential.