PUA is fundamentally bad for YOU.

[AerisVahnEphelia]

(Not for everyone, but definitely for most spiritual nerds here.)

The problem with the PUA mindset is that whenever you act against who you really are, it is like swimming in a pond surrounded by frogs that are not even your species.

If you are a nerd, I hate to break it to you, but the places you genuinely enjoy are probably where you are most likely to meet the right woman for you. Of course, you still need to expand your social opportunities within those fields.

PUA can be useful for random encounters, but nothing lasting will come from it if you are constantly performing. You will not find someone who matches your frequency while acting in places and situations that do not match your own.

I knew an intelligent, nerdy guy online who worked in financial consulting. He almost never went outside, yet he dated at least five women simply by talking shit with them online in chat rooms about crazy metascientific ideas and similar topics.

So, if you are a nerd, meet women online. Forget the PUA stuff.

And to be honest, I have kissed models in bars in Japan and met models in France. Okay, one of them only became a model after I met her. I do not even care that much about conventional beauty, but I assume that many of the people reading this do.

I am fairly cute, and I have done plenty of “real-life” social stuff, so it is not as though I need some enormous amount of “game” either. But that lifestyle still feels completely out of step with who I am. I am chill and calm at home 98% of the time, unless I am raving once a month on a load of drugs before returning to my cave.

Just be creative. Are you a tech nerd? Meet people through apps or attend events related to your actual interests: science, philosophy, meditation clubs, technology, gaming, or whatever genuinely attracts you.

Do not simply approach random women in the street. Even when it works initially, it often fails in the long term for countless reasons.

If you meet a woman in a nightclub, there is a relatively high chance that she genuinely enjoys clubbing. If you do not, then you may be beginning the relationship with a major incompatibility already built into it.

The problem is not necessarily PUA itself. The problem is using it to become someone who is fundamentally not you. It means acting against your authentic self and attracting women to a version of yourself that you cannot sustain.

If your natural lifestyle involves spending eight hours a day on your computer studying quantum physics, and you meet a woman who is obsessed with skiing because you approached her in the street, you may simply end up with someone who does not match you.

Of course, if your goal is casual sex and simply getting your dick wet, go ahead. But you are unlikely to find your future wife by acting against your own passions.

At best, you may gain a few skill points in street-level social interaction. But that is like learning archery when you are a computer engineer: a cool side skill, perhaps, but not your actual field.

Edited 13 hours ago by AerisVahnEphelia

[LordFall]

Pickup doesn't aim to change who you are. It aims to give you an actionabe skillset to meet women on your terms. You make some good points but all you fundamentally said is, just be yourself, which is not very helpful advice in any area of life. 

People learn skills, it doesn't mean they betray their core identity. It CAN mean that but that's an oversimplification. 

Passions are great, I met my first girlfriend by volunteering at the Comic Con at the city I lived in at the time. I was doing a bunch of cold approach on the local campus at the time and that gave me the charisma and nonchalanec to act cool and not awkward when I met my ex and she liked that and asked me out herself. I don't think I would've gotten her if I was not doing pickup as my natural self is not that extroverted and doesn't know how to naturally talk to people and be social. I think the advice you're giving is reductionist and not that helpful. 

 

[AerisVahnEphelia]

@LordFall

There are plenty of ways to learn how not to be socially awkward, such as simply hanging out with a group of friends that is not exclusively male.

The point of my post was basically this: find your own pond, then improve what you already know and what you are capable of doing within it.

I never said, “Just be yourself.” I am familiar with that criticism, but I do not think it applies here. I was not being vague. 
But yes, you should be yourself, meaning the best version of yourself, one that has actively worked on improving itself.

 

I was being clear. Reducing my point to the comic you posted would have been reductive, which my post was not.

Also, it is a forum post. I was not writing a book. If you have questions, I am perfectly willing to add more layers and go into greater detail through an interactive exchange.

 

You rather proved my point by talking about the comic con, nothing really worked before that, thank you.

Edited 12 hours ago by AerisVahnEphelia

[LordFall]

6 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

@LordFall

There are plenty of ways to learn how not to be socially awkward, such as simply hanging out with a group of friends that is not exclusively male.

You rather proved my point by talking about the comic con, nothing really worked before that, thank you.

Pickup teaches you both social skills and romantic escalation. There are plenty of men with a lot of female friends that don't get laid. It's why the friendzone and orbiters are popular terms. 

I got laid before then just not a girlfriend. My next girlfriend after that I met smoking weed with consistent friend group in my neighbourhood so I guess that's hobbies in common.

You just spoke specifically against PUA and I agree that most of the dating coaches in that industry have flaws but it's helped me and many men I know not only sleep with a lot of women but also find relationships so I had to stand against the core premise of your post. 

[Elliott]

21 minutes ago, AerisVahnEphelia said:

 

There are plenty of ways to learn how not to be socially awkward, such as simply hanging out with a group of friends that is not exclusively male.

 

I would like to second this. Girls are really little different than us, guys get some alien idea about girls. Just go make friends, maybe a healthy form of pick-up like education would just be about getting over social fears, it shouldn't be about dating in my opinion, it's very creepy to me. And girls should do the social fear stuff too.

Edited 12 hours ago by Elliott

[AerisVahnEphelia]

Just now, LordFall said:

Pickup teaches you both social skills and romantic escalation. There are plenty of men with a lot of female friends that don't get laid. It's why the friendzone and orbiters are popular terms. 

I got laid before then just not a girlfriend. My next girlfriend after that I met smoking weed with consistent friend group in my neighbourhood so I guess that's hobbies in common.

You just spoke specifically against PUA and I agree that most of the dating coaches in that industry have flaws but it's helped me and many men I know not only sleep with a lot of women but also find relationships so I had to stand against the core premise of your post. 

I think I should just edit the title to make it less bait-like and provocative. If you read the post without taking the title too literally, we basically agree.

Overall, there is nothing wrong with learning how to cook if you are a soldier. On the contrary, cooking could help you in certain situations and improve your morale. Instead of eating shitty food, you might make something good that boosts your morale and ultimately makes you a better soldier.

There is nothing inherently wrong with doing PUA. What matters in my title is the “for you” part. For most people here, it is probably not what they should primarily be doing.

I never said, “Do not socialize, remain awkward, and do nothing to become more interesting because you are fine as you are.”

No. Absolutely work on becoming socially skilled. Be funny. Become more attractive even physically/clothing wise if you can.

Now, should you sometimes learn something outside your usual field, such as PUA, to become more comfortable in uncomfortable situations? Sure.

Getting out of your comfort zone is useful. But that is not the same as saying you should build your entire dating strategy around something fundamentally disconnected from who you are, to some point, doing a lot of different things is good, especially to know that you shouldn't be doing that.

[Leo Gura]

Pickup can certainly be corrupting to the mind and persona.

It did corrupt me in some ways. But it was still worth it.

You gotta do it with some moral standards.

Edited 12 hours ago by Leo Gura

[AerisVahnEphelia]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Pickup can certainly be corrupting to the mind and persona.

It did corrupt me in some ways. But it was still worth it.

You gotta do it with some moral standards.

Overall, if you enjoy it even a little, then it is part of who you are, and it is completely valid to pursue it. I can clearly see that, for many people, this genuinely is the right path.

That is especially true if part of you enjoys meeting someone very different from yourself, which again varies from person to person.

Some nerds would absolutely enjoy being with a woman who is into skiing, because part of their personality genuinely likes being pulled outside their usual bubble.

Overall, it's always case by cases.

But also some people need to improve their social skills differently, PUA isn't a for everyone solution, it's one "good" strat among manies.

Edited 12 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Natasha Tori Maru]

1 hour ago, Elliott said:

I would like to second this. Girls are really little different than us, guys get some alien idea about girls. Just go make friends, maybe a healthy form of pick-up like education would just be about getting over social fears, it shouldn't be about dating in my opinion, it's very creepy to me. And girls should do the social fear stuff too.

There is this continued narrative on these forums that women are like some sort of fucking alien species.

People need to drop this limiting frame.

[Leo Gura]

13 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

women are like some sort of fucking alien species.

But you are!

[AerisVahnEphelia]

18 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There is this continued narrative on these forums that women are like some sort of fucking alien species.

People need to drop this limiting frame.

I think this applies to a huge part of terminally online male, because it is filled with people who cannot even imagine being around a woman in a non-sexual context. Their brains are trapped inside that matrix.

More than learning dating strategies, some guys should literally start by befriending women or simply spending time around them ( and I don't mean old lady, obviously the one you would still date ). That would help break the invisible wall that makes women seem like foreign beings.

the problem is the whole constant society matrix frame of hyper-sexualization, like sure yeh, sex, boom, good, but like, if you can't see girl through another filter, you're just not flexible & mature enough.

& of course, be proud to be sexual when you're in a flirt/relationship.
 

Edited 10 hours ago by AerisVahnEphelia

[LordFall]

34 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There is this continued narrative on these forums that women are like some sort of fucking alien species.

People need to drop this limiting frame.

I agree and funnily enough as we seem to be in the middle of a gender war; the duality between men and women is gonna end then in the next 20-30 years. They already made breakthroughs being able to turn random cells into sex cells so same sex couples can reproduce and soon enough babies will be able to be born in vats so the uterus is not the only place they'll come from.

The main major personality difference observed between women and men is about a .50 standard deviation in trait neuroticism, in the big five personality model. Apart from that we're about the same and just have played different roles in human history depending on culture. 

[Zenterus]

Pick-Up is meant to take you on a self expansion and self discovery journey that, in some respects, does force you to step outside of yourself but eventually leads you back to your most powerful REAL self.

Most people are the way that they are not because that is who they are, but because their environment has told them that's who they are. If you're a nerd, that is an identity you adopted for survival reasons. Same with being an artist or a naturally attractive Lover-Archetype, or any other identity. And then, as people treat you a certain way, that identity becomes reinforced and crystalizes, leaving you stuck in it, in some cases for life.

Now if you happen to grow up in an environment that assigned you a role (through upbringing, environment, friends, socialization, etc) that favours you, then great! But a lot of guys who get into pickup have been dealt a bad hand and game takes them on a journey that challenges their core self-conception until it is molded into a more attractive one, but still authentic.

I akin it to the Hero's Journey. You start off being one way and you're called by Pick Up or Game to expand and evolve. You may reject the call to adventure at first because it is scary, but eventually the pain of being who you currently are is so great that it overpowers your fear. And so off you go! You find mentors, learn from them, practise the techniques, have lots of sex, fail a lot more than you succeed, become frustrated, deal with more challenges, have some profound intimate experiences with women, you learn what you like and dont like, etc etc.

And eventually through this journey, after expanding yourself and wearing different masks at different points, while shedding aspects of your being that you've identified as limitations, you are molded into something quite amazing. By the end of the Hero's Journey: Your mentors have died, and thus you've developed your own authentic philosophy for how life, love and dating works; You've slayed the dragon, aka burned through your karma of needing sex and outside validation; And finally you return home, back to yourself where it all began, being the same but very much different.

This has been my journey.

I started off as a nerd and a geek. But I wasnt happy with myself and how I was being treated by others. I took on the challenge to learn game and through it I expanded my being in so many profound ways. And after being a player and indulging in that lifestyle for a bit (10 fuckin years), I am back to where I started, being an introverted nerd, but a much more powerful version of that than I was when I started. Not a shy, weak, antisocial, insecure nerd. But a cool, strong, dominated, decisive, charismatic, sexually confident nerd.

So when all is said and done: You're still yourself.

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Zenterus

[AION]

Pick up can´t be done without biting into the forbidden fruit. It is unethical and manipulative by nature especially when you reach high degrees of manipulation and consciousness to see it. And one can´t say it is innocent while keeping a straight face. And that is ok. One just have to be honest about it to oneself. 

Edited 6 hours ago by AION

[Ulax]

I don't see a better alternative.

 

[Ulax]

4 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There is this continued narrative on these forums that women are like some sort of fucking alien species.

People need to drop this limiting frame.

How can you give advice on something you've never done?

[Raze]

Except you need a way to develop the social skills and game to make that work anyway, PUA does that.

Edited 6 hours ago by Raze

[Miguel1]

This is not so black and white. If you have never done pick up, you don’t really know how much it grows you.

Do you understand the strenght it takes to walk up to a group of 10 people sitting, you remaining completely calm and grounded, starting a conversation with them and making them like you? I would probably have never been able to do this without practicing pick up.

Last night, I walked up alone, to a 10 person group, 9 man, 1 gorgeous blonde. And almost took the blonde from them. This is fucking confidence. What else is this? This is the true strenght of a man who has gone through hell to purify his weaknesses.

Can you do this? If you can’t then don’t shit on this skillset too quickly.

Besides, what’s the alternative? Most guys cannot do online dating. Dating via job is very limited and risky. Same with social circle - it is also not easy to have proper social circle without good social skills.

But yeah, I do get the toxicity. There is definitely a very toxic form of pick up. I used to practice that when I was younger. But nowadays I do a much healthier version of it, and that is what I recommend.

Edited 6 hours ago by Miguel1

[Natasha Tori Maru]

59 minutes ago, Ulax said:

How can you give advice on something you've never done?

A framework that puts one sex of a species as being totally alien? It causes needless seperation when connecting is what it's all about. 

The advice I have isn't isolated to this. It's a given that all frames have limits to them. This one is just especially so. I don't need to have lived experience to apply analytical logic - and if you disqualify based on that I can't help you. And you are free to not take the advice.

[PsychedelicEagle]

I think an important distinction has to be drawn between PUA as it's often taught, which concerns mostly the attraction phase, versus a much more well-rounded dating and relationships personal-development style.

For example, Corey Wayne provides a great framework for the entire process.

Even if you do not want to meet people in person (which in my opinion would make anyone grow tremendously), there is great knowledge to be learned about how women behave and how to show up in a long-term relationship as a man, as a woman, or as whatever part of the spectrum one feels comfortable being.

Edited 4 hours ago by PsychedelicEagle