Most Dating Books/Teachers Aren't Exceptional

[AION]

@LordFall the girls that have been paying for the dates or splitting the bill where one of the hottest girls I have dated. Who pays doesn’t influence much as long as you keep the masculine frame. If your masculine frame breaks down becuase she paid for the ice cream  yea that is going to be a problem  

 

[AION]

If you say women only date for the  status hierarchy you are basically saying she is a smart prostitute.  Instead of fucking for money she fucks for status. And instead of multiple different ugly clients just one guy who does the provision. 

[LordFall]

I mean you can think about it in whatever way you want to. For me I like the harem builder game where I work on my business and date multiple women and subs that live under me and I fund their life and lifestyle while they chill and/or work for me and my business. 

The problem with not funding their lifestyle is your woman will end up working for another man or a system that probably exploits her and she'll come back home drained and not giving you and your children together her best. I think most women would rather be stay at home moms if their man could afford it but it's become too hard due macroeconomics and thus 90% of men in America can't fund that lifestyle for their partner.

 

[AION]

@LordFall I can’t finance that lifestyle but I agree that is dating on easy mode 

[Miguel1]

4 minutes ago, LordFall said:

I mean you can think about it in whatever way you want to. For me I like the harem builder game where I work on my business and date multiple women and subs that live under me and I fund their life and lifestyle while they chill and/or work for me and my business. 

The problem with not funding their lifestyle is your woman will end up working for another man or a system that probably exploits her and she'll come back home drained and not giving you and your children together her best. I think most women would rather be stay at home moms if their man could afford it but it's become too hard due macroeconomics and thus 90% of men in America can't fund that lifestyle for their partner.

This guy. And you says you are not stuck in orange 

You remind me of my younger self. Except, include also how they will benefit spiritually with you as well. Then you have the perfect self-deceived delusional drowned in his own success.

[LordFall]

Just now, AION said:

@LordFall I can’t finance that lifestyle but I agree that is dating on easy mode 

Are you working on a business now? You can start today and be quite successful in a few years. Every man and woman should work on their own business to become financially independent and be able to share that gift with their friends, family and lovers. 

I share my own journey on this journal thread here : 

 

1 minute ago, Miguel1 said:

This guy. And you says you are not stuck in orange 

You remind me of my younger self. Except, include also how they will benefit spiritually with you as well. Then you have the perfect self-deceived delusional drowned in his own success.

My philosophy won't work for everyone but it's built on avoiding the mistakes and pitfalls I see others fall into. I don't think I'm self-deceived but feel free to point out some blind spots if you believe they are genuine and not stemming from your own spiritual bypassing. 

[Ulax]

16 minutes ago, AION said:

If you say women only date for the  status hierarchy you are basically saying she is a smart prostitute.  Instead of fucking for money she fucks for status. And instead of multiple different ugly clients just one guy who does the provision. 

Yep, we all a hoe for something

 

[AION]

@LordFall I had an electric bike business on the side but I fucked up and flew too close to the sun with crypto and I lost everything. Now I’m trying to scramble back up. But I’m seeing you are very early in your journey. So I’m surprised you can finance multiple girls. That is basically what Andrew Tate suggests. Getting dates is not too difficult for me right now so I can’t imagine how easy it would be if I would contribute to a girl’s survival. You don’t even need game in that case. It is just basically Andrew Tate style control / provision to a girl’s lifestyle. I don’t even know if I want that. Because I’m not only in for the girls but also in for the skill acquisition of getting a girl. Currently I’m working on frame. It is easy to get girls but a lot of times I drop frame and fail shit tests. 

Edited Tuesday at 05:44 AM by AION

[LordFall]

Yeah crypto is tough, some people win big most people lose out. I don't like mentionning Andrew Tate I think he's a dishonest sociopathic rapist. I like more what Tony Huge is doing just living with and dating multiple women and building a cool life together, like a more intentional version of polyamory.

I'm not doing it myself at the moment, building up to it. I did regular game back when I lived in Toronto and it was fun but to me at least I ran out of what I could do without a large amount of cashflow and my own systems built. I would just date women and/or FWBs and hangout and that's fun but I wanted more and I felt like I hit a wall in the quality of the women I could attract.

Then I started doing photoshoot container events after learning the model from social circle coaches. It's fun but the programs are designed for high income professionals to reinvest their disposable income into their social life to attract more women than they otherwise could. That's not a bad plan but I like the idea of building a business around it and scaling it globally. That's what I'm working on right now. 

Also with all the models I get I see a common theme where they are down to go to events, photoshoots and shoot content but they have a hard time managing it all by themselves. A lot of modelling agencies are scams and make their money charging the models for expensive shoots. I'm working on my own agency to help them automate a lot of their brand outreach and standardize content production. I think the way Hugh Hefner did it with his setup being buit on top of a media agency is the way to do it to get global reach. It's also quite fun to work with women and "conquer the world" with them so I'll keep going down that path and seeing how it goes. 

You still need game to optimize it and be in a genuine relationship with the women and not just manipulate them to get what you want. It just structures the relationship in the right way if you come at it from a provider angle after you already have the lover one secured imo. Financial issues are one of the top causes for divorces and even in marriages that stay together a lot of couples are just stressed and barely surviving in life. I think putting the cart before the horse and setting up your business properly is so key to a high level dating life and relationships. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:05 PM by LordFall

[Ulax]

1 hour ago, LordFall said:

Yeah crypto is tough, some people win big most people lose out. I don't like mentionning Andrew Tate I think he's a dishonest sociopathic rapist. I like more what Tony Huge is doing just living with and dating multiple women and building a cool life together, like a more intentional version of polyamory.

Ye Tate is a v bad comparison. That dude literally bragged about sex trafficking to sell a product.

[Emerald]

On 7/25/2026 at 4:49 AM, Miguel1 said:

I can sense something building up between some guys on the forum and Natasha.

This reminds me of all the heated conversations between Emerald and Etheral Cat vs Leo.

We probably should start a conversation to clear it.

I can sense the tension building up very very clearly actually.

The tension comes from when guys here based on their experience or no experience + knowledge they have learned, view women as these shallow, childhish and easily seduced by toxic, selfish, narcissist, immature behaviour - of course the ladies here do not like that.

Natasha recently gave a very clear warning to AION for calling women shallow. Yet, this has been constantly brough up afterwards, even the leader of the community regularly calls women ”easy to fool” etc. I very strongly sense that Natasha does not like this really at all.

I kinda am hesitant to start the conversation, because it never lead anywhere good throughout the years, despite multiple conversations about it. Instead, we just lost the female members here. But perhaps we are more mature and wiser now?

I would like to have @Emerald @Etherial Cat & @Natasha Tori Maru actively be part of that conversation.

I truly feel like we lose all the quality female members here precisely because of this discord.

I myself am 50/50 in the topic. Yes, a lot / most girls from my experience are immature as hell, and are attracted to immature and unconscious behaviour from a man. But so are most guys immature as hell.

But surely, the more conscious women do not fall for such stupid games, right?! At least this is what I deep down hope for, because that’s what I want.

But is just false, no matter how much I want it?

A perfect pair of boobs is still gonna draw me in, despite all the maturing I’ve done. My discerment is definitely way better now than when I was younger. No matter how perfect the boobs are, toxicity and drama is still mostly a turn off for me, for I value my inner peace very highly.

But I am a man. I can better detach myself from my feelings, or can I?

What I think (apropos of the debates) is that there are a lot of guys on the forum who were taught (by grifters) "Don't listen to women on these matters. Don't ask a fish to catch it." Instead buy my very expensive program.

And that's a comforting sentiment for men who have historically struggled with dating and socializing, as it can give the sense "All I need to do is understand and practice this finite logical list of basic principles and I will understand women better than they understand themselves, and understand the universal formula for evoking attraction in a woman."

So, when women (especially very introspective women like the ones on this forum) fact-check that and says, "Actually, those things are only partially true." or "Those things only work with women who have attachment issues." or "That is outright false."... it shakes the certainty of a very comforting paradigm and the illusion of control and certainty over a historically confusing, difficult, or sometimes shame-inducing part of life.

And this causes a kind of backlash and an un-teachability, where there is an immunity to wisdom beyond what they already believe they know.

It's kind of like how you can't pour liquid into a cup that's already full.

So, it becomes impossible or nearly impossible for me and the other female members on the forum to communicate real lived-in truths about women's actual experiences of attraction towards men without a significant amount of emotionally charged blow-back.

And the conversation gets to be a one-sided because the actual female perspective doesn't really have space here to exist. This is largely why this space repels women and becomes a 98% male space.

And the issue with these gaming paradigms is that women are picking up on so many teeny tiny signals about a man that come through in his words, actions, gestures, facial expressions, fashion choices, scent, and overall energy.

And only like 20% of those signals can be actively changed and improved by the man in a more objective sense. That's what game and increasing attractiveness level is all about... fiddling with the 20%.

The other 80% is just who the man fundamentally is as a person. And whether or not attraction happens is very particular and subjective and very specific human-centered.

But women (and men) are also attracted to people who embody patterns from childhood.

For example, a woman who grew up around parents that committed infidelity is more likely to be attracted to a partner who will cheat. While a women who didn't grow up around that pattern will tend to be repelled by the vibes of a cheater.

For the former woman, cheater-vibes will evoke attraction. For the latter woman, cheater-vibes will evoke a passive sense of disgust that prevents attraction.

I actually had quite an interesting experience of realizing this. Before I was 14 years old, I wasn't very knowledgeable yet about what I wanted in a partner. And I had just started dating a year before that. And I was just happy that I had guys who were attracted to me.

Then, as I gained a bit more experience and dated guys with certain weaknesses of character (like guys who were prone to cheating and other problem behaviors), my taste started to become more discerning. 

And by the time I was 15 years old, I could read immediately when a guy had those specific weaknesses. And attraction just wouldn't arise. And I'd feel a passive form of disgust.

But I still had issues because I have one parent who tends to get angry a lot and yell a lot. And I found myself very attracted to guys who have a tendency to yell and get angry frequently. And that pattern continued into my early 30s, when I finally resolved the underlying root of that pattern in an Ayahuasca journey.

And now, having a temper has had the attractiveness neutralized from it as the pattern that created that attraction was resolved.

So attraction is governed by objective qualities, subjective qualities, and familial patterns (positive and negative).

And my experience has been that the vibes of someone who tries all these tactics and strategies has an unattractive vibe to me because it feels a bit immature and gives very automated mechanistic vibes.

And on vibes alone, I could probably sense in 5 minutes if a guy has the pick-up mentality or not. And he doesn't even need to do anything that pertains to it.

And what tends to attract me are guys with a very unique personality who have more mature vibes. And that taste has developed a lot over the years as I've gained more experience, developed better self-esteem, raised my standards, and developed a more sensitive spidey sense about who people are as a person and how well they gel with me.

That said, if a man wants to attract an immature woman, the best way to do so is to be an immature man... but to be immature in a social and game-playing direction. And this is where these strategies will work the best... especially if that woman has anxious attachment.

But a relationship like that will cap the man's potential and will create a hellish dynamic that doesn't really work... as it's two immature people trying to have an adult relationship.

And about your point... the good new is... it's totally normal for a heterosexual man to be attracted to boobs. There's nothing dysfunctional about that. And that won't change no matter how much you mature. 

But similar to what you said, as maturity develops in men and more discernment develops (and he loses the sense of scarcity), the boobs don't become the determining factor of whether or not to get involved with a woman. And if the boobs are attached to a crazy or immature woman, he's not going to be very interested... and he will probably develop the ick, regardless of how the woman looks.

I know plenty of very mature men that this describes. 

So, both mature men and mature women with relatively high self-esteem will tend to be un-interested in potential partners that are operating in immature ways.

And more mature women who aren't caught up in some negative familial pattern will catch the whiff of games and gimmicks from a mile away. 

As a woman, I know that I can meet someone and know their deal in about 5 minutes because I'm picking on so much information about who that person is just in the tone of his voice or tiny micro-expressions on his face. And I can feel if he's a good fit or isn't. And I can feel how secure or insecure he is. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Emerald thank you, Emerald ❤️‍🔥

[Jirh]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

And about your point... the good new is... it's totally normal for a heterosexual man to be attracted to boobs. There's nothing dysfunctional about that. And that won't change no matter how much you mature. 

But similar to what you said, as maturity develops in men and more discernment develops (and he loses the sense of scarcity), the boobs don't become the determining factor of whether or not to get involved with a woman. And if the boobs are attached to a crazy or immature woman, he's not going to be very interested... and he will probably develop the ick, regardless of how the woman looks.

I know plenty of very mature men that this describes. 

So, both mature men and mature women with relatively high self-esteem will tend to be un-interested in potential partners that are operating in immature ways.

Obviously.

But also obviously, that's a strawman argument, because even though it's true, that doesn't mean it's relevant. You're talking about aging and maturing and selecting. He's talking about timeless patterns of attraction.

In other words, being mature doesn't magically remove or even alter our attraction signifiers in any meaningful way. We still crave what we crave, and we can still hook up with someone without commitment. This is true for both men and women, but is less serious for a man than it is for a woman.

Selection criteria is not the same as innate attraction. One is surface-level and conscious and the other is deeply-wired and unconscious.

Virtually, no man will get the ick from a nice pair of boobs, even if the girl is immature or crazy. Sometimes, being crazy enhances the attraction even more.

Edited 2 hours ago by Jirh

[Miguel1]

@Emerald thank you. I am with you, the issue is I struggle to find psychologically mature women who are also relatively young and physically looks good, as I am also fairly young yet.

I find a lot of physically good looking but immature or crazy girls, and as you said, my discerment stops me from being attracted to them.

@Jirh You didn’t properly read what she wrote.

Me maturing definitely has changed in how my attraction develops and who and what attracts me.

Integrity and alignment in girls becomes more and more important for me, as my own integrity and alignment develops.

The more full of shit, drama and unconsciousness someone is, the more they stop me from being attracted to them, and even repulse me — no matter how great pair of a boobs they have.

If a girl is a psycho, why in the hell would I get involved with her? This is ridiculous.

Edited 1 hour ago by Miguel1

[Jirh]

@Miguel1 So you were strawmanning yourself unknowingly? lol

A nice pair of boobs will give you an erection, no matter how much you resist it. It's not in your control. It's an unconscious reflex. (provided that you are actually present and looking, or you imagine them effectively lol)

However, the choice to act on it is yours. Whether you want a committed relationship, a casual encounter, or no encounter at all is your decision.

Contrast a nice pair of boobs of a crazy girl with a mature woman with proper clothes that don't reveal any cleavage. The crazy girl will get your erection, while the mature one won't.

Interest is not instinct. And sexual attraction is based on unconscious instinct, not conscious interest.

No man jerks off to maturity. Even the most mature and conscious and spiritual men of all time will not get erected to a granny (unless that's somehow their visual preference).

Edited 48 minutes ago by Jirh

[Miguel1]

@Jirh This is not my experince at the moment.

In my early 20s to mid 20s, yes that was my experince.

I still have the skills and game to be attracting these young and physically attractive girls, but I find their mind to be so naive, it is hard for me to get excited about them — in some ways I even feel like I am taking advantage of their naive mind, and using them, if I game and seduce them.

If I haven’t masturbated in a while and a hot girl appears in my room and I didn’t have to game and get to know her, then sure I guess we could have sex, especially if she is the more proactive one. But not sure how fulfilling that sex would be for me.

But in any normal situations, I’ve become more like a girl with sex, as I need proper build-up, some sort of a connection. And that’s the problem, a proper connection with young girls is seemingly impossible. I need to admire her psychologically and be mentally engaged when hanging out with her, to a certain degree. It arouses me when my mind feels aligned and safe with a girl, and this happens only if I see a level of alignment, integrity, and maturity in a girl — if the girl is immature, it turns me off, as it almost feels like I am spending time with a child.

I need to feel like this is a great girl, and I would like to build something more meaningful with her, other than just 1 night stand.

Lately I’ve pulled some girls home, just to decide that I want to only cuddle her and sleep, because I realized that her mind doesn’t get me on. I don’t see any future with her, and so I don’t want to use her. Rather, I just want to give her some love in the form of warmth and cuddling.

Imagine that your highest values are the exact opposite of what a girl represents. It’s hard to get excited about her then.

This is my situation. 5 years ago I didn’t care about truth, integrity, empathy, maturity, consciousness Nearly as much as I do now, and so, seduction and game was fun and very doable — altho it also got boring really fast then too.

Edited 25 minutes ago by Miguel1

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@Jirh getting hard isn't a reliable indicator of attraction.

Bodies can respond in ways that don't match our desires, preferences and orientation.

Edited 34 minutes ago by Natasha Tori Maru