The dumbest collective shit test

[Valach]

14 hours ago, LordFall said:

Which one of his points do you think I misunderstood? 

 If someone is not comfortable with sexuality and doesn't wish to get over that discomfort and thus raise their bodycount then that's their life I don't really care. For me sexuality is thrilling, fulfilling and an exciting adventure so I have pursued plenty of partners in the past and plan to pursue many other sexual connections. Increasing bodycount is just a consequence of that, it's not really the concept that's worth getting stuck over.

So anyone who does not place high value on sex is just not sexually comfortable for you? Can't you see how reductionist you are in all your arguments?

[Schizophonia]

12 hours ago, LordFall said:

Having sex with escorts is alright, your own girlfriend is way better though. Then you can cuddle also which in some ways is better than sex. I will try it with two girlfriends and report back. 

It's also fun to fuck in different place its a different feeling each time. The woods feel very primal even if it's not comfortable. 

I deleted my comment it was a bad energy behind.

[WonderSeeker]

14 hours ago, LordFall said:

Which one of his points do you think I misunderstood? 

 If someone is not comfortable with sexuality and doesn't wish to get over that discomfort and thus raise their bodycount then that's their life I don't really care. For me sexuality is thrilling, fulfilling and an exciting adventure so I have pursued plenty of partners in the past and plan to pursue many other sexual connections. Increasing bodycount is just a consequence of that, it's not really the concept that's worth getting stuck over.

I'm not really into one night stands so for me building a polycule is the next logical step in my life. I aim to date a few bisexual women and travel the world with them and sleep with women all around the world.

I'm also bisexual myself so perhaps that's another key to this discussion, I'm more comfortable in sexuality than most people. I'm just starting to explore that side of life so far it's been a good time! 

I appreciate the creative ways in which you go about your business. Sounds like you have a fun and rewarding system going there as far as purpose and relationships go.

Nevertheless, @Natasha Tori Maru is right when she says:

14 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

I simply cannot see a tier 2 thinker aiming for high bodycount as any sort of valid goal. There is nothing progressive about attaching to a concept like bodycount.

No one has supplied a good argument for this. Bodycount is totally meaningless.

Reason being, just because you talk about all of this in a highly systemized, elegant, nuanced way doesn't automatically make it "Tier II." To think so is to completely misunderstand what Tier II, is full stop.

I mean dude, who needs to say this:

13 hours ago, LordFall said:

Having sex with escorts is alright, your own girlfriend is way better though. Then you can cuddle also which in some ways is better than sex. I will try it with two girlfriends and report back. 

It's also fun to fuck in different place its a different feeling each time. The woods feel very primal even if it's not comfortable. 

Glad you're enjoying, but nobody asked. How does this relate to the thread, except proving @Valach's low consciousness point...

[Valach]

20 minutes ago, WonderSeeker said:

I appreciate the creative ways in which you go about your business. Sounds like you have a fun and rewarding system going there as far as purpose and relationships go.

Nevertheless, @Natasha Tori Maru is right when she says:

Reason being, just because you talk about all of this in a highly systemized, elegant, nuanced way doesn't automatically make it "Tier II." To think so is to completely misunderstand what Tier II, is full stop.

I mean dude, who needs to say this:

Glad you're enjoying, but nobody asked. How does this relate to the thread, except proving @Valach's low consciousness point...

I am not here to talk down on dating casually and whatnot. Do that if you are in that phase. But we are on a platform about consciousness and related stuff and I feel like it is fair to not glamorize this lifestyle and not pretend like it is some high value thing to do.

[Natasha Tori Maru]

The funny other side of the coin on this post?

As a chick - some guys actually use body count as a negative metric. "Women having a high body count devalues her." 

[something_else]

1 minute ago, Valach said:

I am not here to talk down on dating casually and whatnot. Do that if you are in that phase. But we are on a platform about consciousness and related stuff and I feel like it is fair to not glamorize this lifestyle and not pretend like it is some high value thing to do.

It is not really inherently high value or low value. Some people who have a lot of casual sex are doing it unethically and unconsciously and some are doing it ethically and consciously.

[Valach]

17 minutes ago, something_else said:

It is not really inherently high value or low value. Some people who have a lot of casual sex are doing it unethically and unconsciously and some are doing it ethically and consciously.

Your approach to dating is definitely important and I hope everyone around here does it ethically. But you are still pursuing pleasure, nothing else. There is no virtuousness or high consciousness about this. Just as watching football on the TV is not gonna be high consciousness pursuit even if you do it "consciously".

Edited 10 hours ago by Valach

[Valach]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The funny other side of the coin on this post?

As a chick - some guys actually use body count as a negative metric. "Women having a high body count devalues her." 

I have even met plenty of woman who said that about me. It's not gendered. But guys do it more often probably.

[something_else]

21 minutes ago, Valach said:

Your approach to dating is definitely important and I hope everyone around here does it ethically. But you are still pursuing pleasure, nothing else. There is no virtuousness or high consciousness about this. Just as watching football on the TV is not gonna be high consciousness pursuit even if you do it "consciously".

It's not really clear to me why pursuing pleasure is inherently wrong. It only becomes a problem if it is pursued to the degree that it severely interferes with other things in your life.

Also, especially as a guy, dating casually can force you to confront a lot of your fears as well. It definitely grows you.

[Valach]

7 minutes ago, something_else said:

It's not really clear to me why pursuing pleasure is inherently wrong. It only becomes a problem if it is pursued to the degree that it severely interferes with other things in your life.

Also, especially as a guy, dating casually can force you to confront a lot of your fears as well. It definitely grows you.

There is growth in it, that is true. Though a lot of guys I met also used prolonged "casual" dating phase as a way to avoid confronting other fears of theirs (fear of intimacy, fear of rejection, fear of not being good enough etc..).I am not saying it is inherently wrong - I am just saying it is of "lower" values. I mean stoics spoke about this 2500 years ago. Hedonism in itself does not lead to happy, fulfilled life. And what most of our society considers as "fun" or "pleasure" is a refined strategy to avoid our own inner wounds. Dating in general is the most common way for people to numb out.

Edit: 69th comment in this topic, nice

Edited 9 hours ago by Valach

[Schizophonia]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The funny other side of the coin on this post?

As a chick - some guys actually use body count as a negative metric. "Women having a high body count devalues her." 

The opposite is also true; men having no bodycount 

 

[something_else]

59 minutes ago, Valach said:

There is growth in it, that is true. Though a lot of guys I met also used prolonged "casual" dating phase as a way to avoid confronting other fears of theirs (fear of intimacy, fear of rejection, fear of not being good enough etc..).I am not saying it is inherently wrong - I am just saying it is of "lower" values. I mean stoics spoke about this 2500 years ago

I think the primary reason men end up casually dating for extended periods of time (probably myself included) is avoidant tendencies. You must sacrifice so much freedom to be in a relationship and to me that is rarely worth it. I think freedom is one of my highest values. Whether that is healthy or not is debatable.

I can just maintain friendships and casual relationships and get all of my emotional and physical needs met while still also maintaining the freedom I enjoy. Most long term relationships I see are pretty miserable, though there are exceptions.

Quote

Hedonism in itself does not lead to happy, fulfilled life. And what most of our society considers as "fun" or "pleasure" is a refined strategy to avoid our own inner wounds.

Hedonism is chasing only pleasure in your life. Chasing some pleasure in your life is not really hedonism. Doing nothing fun or pleasurable sounds like a miserable way to live life, like at that point why even bother being alive. Life is about finding a balance of pleasure seeking and achieving longer term goals.

[Valach]

21 minutes ago, something_else said:

I think the primary reason men end up casually dating for extended periods of time (probably myself included) is avoidant tendencies. You must sacrifice so much freedom to be in a relationship and to me that is rarely worth it. I think freedom is one of my highest values. Whether that is healthy or not is debatable.

I can just maintain friendships and casual relationships and get all of my emotional and physical needs met while still also maintaining the freedom I enjoy. Most long term relationships I see are pretty miserable, though there are exceptions.

That was me for a long time so I can relate. My experience in general is that a lot of what pickup/self-development does is that it takes a bunch of guys who are anxiously attached and makes them into avoidants. Underlying emotion is still a fear. So what are we affraid of?

21 minutes ago, something_else said:

Hedonism is chasing only pleasure in your life. Chasing some pleasure in your life is not really hedonism. Doing nothing fun or pleasurable sounds like a miserable way to live life, like at that point why even bother being alive. Life is about finding a balance of pleasure seeking and achieving longer term goals.

I mean yes. It's hard to find the balance for that for sure. Noone is pure hedonist and noone is pure non-hedonist. Where is the healthy line? I don't know personally. But you can refine your "pleasures" to be more soothing. In the past I might find a lot of pleasure in going to a party, drinking some alcohol and hooking up with someone. Now it's more like going with a close friend of mine for a ginger tea and being present with each other. Both are pleasures and in a way hedonistic but they are way different. There is not as much "high" in the second one and it's way more filling if it makes sense. But it took me long time to develop the connection to my body to judge correctly what is actually satiating to me internally and what is not.

That is sort of what pushed me away from the pickup, party lifestyle etc. It's not that I considered the lifestyle to be inherently wrong. It's more about the more I was becoming aware of my inner child and how different things actually impact me the more I could clearly see that this is just a way to distract myself. And I could also clearly see in other taking part in this that they are not content and happy either. Just living on that high high.

Edited 8 hours ago by Valach

[Zenterus]

Beautiful discussion. I had a great time reading through @Valach and @LordFall's perspectives. Also some good points from @something_else !

My personal experience aligns more with @Valach, I must say.

I've done a lot of cold approach, online dating and, yes, social circle game and got plenty of sex from all of these avenues along my 10 year exploration of game, pickup, dating dynamics and women.

Each of these paths has something unique and exciting but that rush eventually runs out, in my experience and it ends up becoming compulsive and a distraction from deeper work that needs to be done.

One of my insights throughout my journey, was that having a lot of sex with various women is actually disrespectful to my body and sovereignity. Everytime I have sex with a woman who I care very little for, it betrays my higher self and hurts my spiritual well-being.

I dont enjoy it nearly as much as I used to and, thus, have to transcend it now. But at the same time, it was a journey I NEEDED to go on, in order to develop myself as a man. 

Be that as it may, I do think @LordFall does actually have a point. In my current stage, I do value a lot of depth and shares value in my relationships with people and building a social circle of likeminded individuals feels way more fulfilling now than ever before. So I can see how combining that with sexual "conquest" and purpose could be fulfilling to some men, because the women that you are sleeping with are women who you have shared experiences and values with, not just some random club girl you pulled that one night.

However, even then, I personally have found the hedonistic lifestyle to be very unfulfilling. Having solid platonic friendships with men and women who I respect, without ever escalating that further -- unless real romantic feelings develop -- feels more rewarding to me than casual hookups.

But again, everyone is different, so best not to project your experience on others.

[something_else]

1 hour ago, Valach said:

That was me for a long time so I can relate. My experience in general is that a lot of what pickup/self-development does is that it takes a bunch of guys who are anxiously attached and makes them into avoidants. Underlying emotion is still a fear. So what are we affraid of?

That sounds like a pretty accurate assessment of pickup, although I (perhaps because I am biased) do not think avoidant attachment style is really a negative.

I have quite a few deep friendship bonds and I've been in several long term relationships where there was a deep emotional connection, so I'm capable of attachment. I just don't really see why it's necessary to completely attach on to a person to the degree that a long term relationship requires.

1 hour ago, Valach said:

I mean yes. It's hard to find the balance for that for sure. Noone is pure hedonist and noone is pure non-hedonist. Where is the healthy line? I don't know personally. But you can refine your "pleasures" to be more soothing. In the past I might find a lot of pleasure in going to a party, drinking some alcohol and hooking up with someone. Now it's more like going with a close friend of mine for a ginger tea and being present with each other. Both are pleasures and in a way hedonistic but they are way different. There is not as much "high" in the second one and it's way more filling if it makes sense. But it took me long time to develop the connection to my body to judge correctly what is actually satiating to me internally and what is not.

That is sort of what pushed me away from the pickup, party lifestyle etc. It's not that I considered the lifestyle to be inherently wrong. It's more about the more I was becoming aware of my inner child and how different things actually impact me the more I could clearly see that this is just a way to distract myself. And I could also clearly see in other taking part in this that they are not content and happy either. Just living on that high high.

That is all very fair, I agree with basically everything here 

[Valach]

10 minutes ago, something_else said:

That sounds like a pretty accurate assessment of pickup, although I (perhaps because I am biased) do not think avoidant attachment style is really a negative.

I have quite a few deep friendship bonds and I've been in several long term relationships where there was a deep emotional connection, so I'm capable of attachment. I just don't really see why it's necessary to completely attach on to a person to the degree that a long term relationship requires.

I am the same actually. I do have deep friendships and generally speaking deep relationships with woman as well. There is this stereotype of avoidants being really surface level oriented but I do not think that is true. I think there is just this strategy of being intimate and deep in a very safe way. But it also depends if this is not working out for you in some way. I can totally see how I am sabotaging my relationships so I have no choice but to work on it..

11 minutes ago, something_else said:

That is all very fair, I agree with basically everything here 

That was basically all my point. I just sometimes struggle to explain it since I am not native speaker and tend to rush my thoughts in the text.

[LordFall]

6 hours ago, Valach said:

So anyone who does not place high value on sex is just not sexually comfortable for you? Can't you see how reductionist you are in all your arguments?

I think that if you approach your pickup journey in a traditional cold approach way instead of making female friends and an overall social circle that aligns with your goals and values then it's easy for me to see how that would lead to a lack of fulfillment. It's normal to take a break from dating and sex to focus on other goals, I've done that myself. 

5 hours ago, WonderSeeker said:

I appreciate the creative ways in which you go about your business. Sounds like you have a fun and rewarding system going there as far as purpose and relationships go.

Nevertheless, @Natasha Tori Maru is right when she says:

Reason being, just because you talk about all of this in a highly systemized, elegant, nuanced way doesn't automatically make it "Tier II." To think so is to completely misunderstand what Tier II, is full stop.

I mean dude, who needs to say this:

Glad you're enjoying, but nobody asked. How does this relate to the thread, except proving @Valach's low consciousness point...

I think you're perhaps spiritually bypassing. It's easy to find think that sex is a low consciousness activity but it doesn't have to be so. Dating and sex can lead to greater intimacy and empathy which can then lead you to connect with human beings overall and thus be a powerful leader that then leads back towards community and business. Tier 2 has to do with holism and systems thinking. If you're gonna challenge me on that point feel free to elaborate on your understanding of Stage yellow and beyond and how it conflicts with what I've said. 

Bounding with your fellow human beings and maximizing reality is an extremely high value thing to do. Most people engage in low value coping based relationships that don't serve their deeper goals though so the are a similar activity conducted in a lower consciousness way. It's easy to conflict the two but they are very different. 

An easy litmus test is there are people you can hangout with that the more you hangout with them the more chaotic and dysfunctional your life will be. People that chase hedonism and have an alcohol addiction are an easy example. If you hangout with them 100 days in a row your life will literally collapse to the point of losing your job, going homeless, going to jail, etc. 

There are others that if you hangout with them for 100 days in a row you will be very fulfilled and happy. Intentional communities, entrepreneurship minded people, people that value health and fitness, etc. 

You can separate this from dating and sex but they can be very connected if you build your life intentionally around pursuits that you value and people that embody that. Which is the difference between stage orange vs stage yellow pickup. 

[Schizophonia]

@LordFallYour instagram account is cool

Edited 5 hours ago by Schizophonia

[LordFall]

13 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

@LordFallYour instagram account is cool

Appreciate it bro, feel free to follow me I'll follow you back. Instagram is a great way to build community, gain status and you can eventually use it as a dating app. Highly recommend everyone use social media as an extension of their dating strategy. 

5 hours ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

The funny other side of the coin on this post?

As a chick - some guys actually use body count as a negative metric. "Women having a high body count devalues her." 

Yes a lot of men are put off by high agency women, it's easier if a woman is docile and lacks real world experience. They also worry about women that use sex to avoid emotions so if they get into a fight the guys fear that they'll go fuck an ex or some random dude(it does happen for sure) but I mean it can equally be true that a woman that has had a decent amount of partners will appreciate your unique qualities more. I've also heard that virgins can take you for granted since you've all they've experience of the male species so I think it's a pretty silly ideology. 

 

3 hours ago, Valach said:

That was me for a long time so I can relate. My experience in general is that a lot of what pickup/self-development does is that it takes a bunch of guys who are anxiously attached and makes them into avoidants. Underlying emotion is still a fear. So what are we affraid of?

I mean yes. It's hard to find the balance for that for sure. Noone is pure hedonist and noone is pure non-hedonist. Where is the healthy line? I don't know personally. But you can refine your "pleasures" to be more soothing. In the past I might find a lot of pleasure in going to a party, drinking some alcohol and hooking up with someone. Now it's more like going with a close friend of mine for a ginger tea and being present with each other. Both are pleasures and in a way hedonistic but they are way different. There is not as much "high" in the second one and it's way more filling if it makes sense. But it took me long time to develop the connection to my body to judge correctly what is actually satiating to me internally and what is not.

That is sort of what pushed me away from the pickup, party lifestyle etc. It's not that I considered the lifestyle to be inherently wrong. It's more about the more I was becoming aware of my inner child and how different things actually impact me the more I could clearly see that this is just a way to distract myself. And I could also clearly see in other taking part in this that they are not content and happy either. Just living on that high high.

Yes attachment theory is important to understand otherwise you just replicate unhelpful dynamics over and over again. You can be secure in your attachment and still enjoy seduction and romance, perhaps it'll lead you more down the polyamory side though or full monogamy for those that enjoy that. 

[Valach]

4 minutes ago, LordFall said:

Yes attachment theory is important to understand otherwise you just replicate unhelpful dynamics over and over again. You can be secure in your attachment and still enjoy seduction and romance, perhaps it'll lead you more down the polyamory side though or full monogamy for those that enjoy that. 

Sure, who knows what happens then. But the pattern seems to be clear. I have said it in other topic.