The epistemology of Michael Jackson fans

[Basman]

He ain't quit there lol.

 

[Husseinisdoingfine]

This is completely unrelated, but MJ admitted to still being a Jehovah's Witness to a reporter in 2001, which he (his family, more accurately) joined when he was 5. 

 

[Monster Energy]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That is poor logic.

Criminals self-snitch.

MJ is so messed up in the head that he doesn't even understand it's wrong. A guy like him could have sex with a child and feel fully convinced it was good for the child. I'm sure is his mind it's all just love.

The real question you should be asking yourself is this:

Why didn't MJ have any sexual relationships with hot women which he could easily have gotten? MJ was obviously not into adult women. And I don't think he was into adult men either. So either he was completely asexual, or he was a pedo. Which do you think is more likely?

MJ fans want me to buy that MJ was asexual. I don't buy it.

MJs lifestyle and behavior around children was exactly what you'd expect of a pedophile. Many pedophiles don't think what they do is wrong. They see it as love.

It’s very possible that some of what you’re saying about Michael is true, but I don’t think the argument that he wasn’t very public or didn’t have many intimate adult relationships is a very strong reason to conclude that he was a pedophile. Still, I don’t think it’s wrong to bring it up because it is interesting to think about. Maybe he really was a child at heart, or maybe he was a monster without fully understanding it himself, like you’re suggesting.

What makes this case difficult is that there are arguments and doubts on both sides. That’s why I think the most honest answer is probably “we can’t know for sure,” rather than acting completely certain either way.

 

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

maybe he was a monster

This is an unnecessary demonization.

He wasn't a monster. He was just messed up in the head.

Quote

the most honest answer is probably “we can’t know for sure,” rather than acting completely certain either way.

Technically we don't know if he had sex with them. But we know for sure he slept in the same bed with them. Which is already wrong. And that he didn't see it as wrong is doubly wrong.

From what I understand it was confirmed that he gave kids wine and porn. That is enough for me. I don't need to know anymore.

Edited 4 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Monster Energy]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is an unnecessary demonization.

He wasn't a monster. He was just messed up in the head.

Technically he don't know if he had sex with them. But we know for sure he slept in the same bed with them. Which is already wrong. And that he didn't see it as wrong is doubly wrong.

From what I understand it was confirmed that he gave kids wine and porn. That is enough for me. I don't need to know anymore.

You’re right, “monster” isn’t really the right word to use in this case. I didn’t know about the wine or the pornography either. That honestly made me rethink things quite a lot. It’s very disturbing.

 

[Consept]

40 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Why would Michael publicly admit that he slept in the same bed as children if he were truly a pedophile? A real pedophile would probably hide those details or be much more careful about how they speak publicly. Michael seems more emotionally unaware of the consequences than like an actual pedophile.

 

This is the thing, pedophiles feel romantic love for children, they dont think theyre harming them. There are some people that abuse children because of domination or cruelty but thats a different mentality. A true pedophile would feel romantic and sexual love the same way you might for someone you love of the opposite or same sex. MJ if we take the perspective that he was a pedophile, would admit it because he sees nothing wrong with it and doesnt want to lie about his love for whichever kid he was talking about. Also if you look at the patterns, he would have a 'favourite kid' for a certain amount of time, then that kid would get replaced when they got a bit older for a younger one. This seems very distinct from just playing around with kids that might visit the neverland ranch. 

The treatment for pedophiles is to make them realise that they cant have a 2 way relationship with a young person and that that young person can not consent or love them in the way they think they can. So if you happen to have been one of the most famous people in the world and a pedophile and can have access to young kids it would be extremely likely they you may abuse them because you can. As @Leo Gura says and I've pointed out in the op he didnt seem to have any meaningful relationships with adult women or men, his brothers and sisters definitely did despite them all being jehovahs witnesses. So the options are either asexual or pedophile, its not impossible that hes asexual i guess but i think with all the other information its unlikely 

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

I didn’t know about the wine or the pornography either.

Yeah all the accusers say that he gave them porn and wine, plus some of his staff has have corroborated it. He called it Jesus Juice apparently and used to give to them in soda cans. Theres also records from a chartered flight that he took where there was a request for wine served in diet coke cans. 

Gavin, one of the accusers knew exactly where his porn stash was in a suitcase in mjs room, which was raided and matched what he said 

[Monster Energy]

17 minutes ago, Consept said:

This is the thing, pedophiles feel romantic love for children, they dont think theyre harming them. There are some people that abuse children because of domination or cruelty but thats a different mentality. A true pedophile would feel romantic and sexual love the same way you might for someone you love of the opposite or same sex. MJ if we take the perspective that he was a pedophile, would admit it because he sees nothing wrong with it and doesnt want to lie about his love for whichever kid he was talking about. Also if you look at the patterns, he would have a 'favourite kid' for a certain amount of time, then that kid would get replaced when they got a bit older for a younger one. This seems very distinct from just playing around with kids that might visit the neverland ranch. 

The treatment for pedophiles is to make them realise that they cant have a 2 way relationship with a young person and that that young person can not consent or love them in the way they think they can. So if you happen to have been one of the most famous people in the world and a pedophile and can have access to young kids it would be extremely likely they you may abuse them because you can. As @Leo Gura says and I've pointed out in the op he didnt seem to have any meaningful relationships with adult women or men, his brothers and sisters definitely did despite them all being jehovahs witnesses. So the options are either asexual or pedophile, its not impossible that hes asexual i guess but i think with all the other information its unlikely 

I think like this, if MJ had no problem saying he slept with children and loved children more than anything else, it feels like he could say for example yes I kissed the children or had sex with them but he would defend himself and say he doesn't see it as immoral even though the majority see it as horrible, what I'm trying to say is that the word pedophile wouldn't mean anything bad according to Michael! He would make people think about what is healthy for children. This is much more logical considering that you, at least Leo think Michael was really completely sick in the head. 

[Monster Energy]

20 minutes ago, Consept said:

Yeah all the accusers say that he gave them porn and wine, plus some of his staff has have corroborated it. He called it Jesus Juice apparently and used to give to them in soda cans. Theres also records from a chartered flight that he took where there was a request for wine served in diet coke cans. 

Gavin, one of the accusers knew exactly where his porn stash was in a suitcase in mjs room, which was raided and matched what he said 

Interesting, is this in the documentary Leaving Neverland?

 

[Consept]

29 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

I think like this, if MJ had no problem saying he slept with children and loved children more than anything else, it feels like he could say for example yes I kissed the children or had sex with them but he would defend himself and say he doesn't see it as immoral even though the majority see it as horrible, what I'm trying to say is that the word pedophile wouldn't mean anything bad according to Michael! He would make people think about what is healthy for children. This is much more logical considering that you, at least Leo think Michael was really completely sick in the head. 

Well i mean he wasnt completely crazy, he obviously knew how it would be seen and that its illegal. It would be more along the lines of him telling the boys that people wont understand our love and that they shouldnt tell anyone, which is what pedophiles would say. Its kinda if you were gay and your family was homophobic and they would disown you if they found out, you're not going to come and say youre gay. 

19 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

Interesting, is this in the documentary Leaving Neverland?

 

Testimony from his case. The flight stuff is in this news report - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jackos-wine-only-in-soda-cans/ 

Found the passenger profile - https://www.reddit.com/r/interesting/comments/1hbcgan/a_passenger_profile_on_michael_jackson_the_king/

Edited 4 hours ago by Consept

[Leo Gura]

This is good, fair analysis of the situation:

 

[Consept]

38 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is good, fair analysis of the situation:

 

Interesting, theres definitely a narrative where he could be innocent. The issue is the parents of the initial accusers are not credible at all, he has very weird and eccentric behaviours. Were they taking advantage of a rich eccentric guy, was he taking advantage of them? This is why so many rape cases are hard to prove, it does come down to one narrative vs the other 

[Leo Gura]

21 minutes ago, Consept said:

the parents of the initial accusers are not credible at all,

That is definitely true. However, I don't listen to their words, I look at MJ's behavior.

[Basman]

31 minutes ago, Consept said:

 Were they taking advantage of a rich eccentric guy, was he taking advantage of them? This is why so many rape cases are hard to prove, it does come down to one narrative vs the other 

There's a definite incentive of huge payouts. It will be easier for the MJ estate to just pay you off to keep quiet even if its only a little bit credible. The whole dynamic is antithetical to definite clear cut conclusions. But I think it's too sus and weird for it to be entirely innocent. There's some wiggle room for doubt but only on minor stuff, no pun intended.

Conclusions: pretty sure he's pedo.

Edited 49 minutes ago by Basman

[Leo Gura]

MJ would spend hours and hours on international phone calls with children. This is wrong in and of itself.

An adult has no business in hours and hours of long private conversations with stranger's children. There is no way that is ever appropriate and not creepy. To me it is obvious he was grooming them. That is classic grooming behavior.

Edited 32 minutes ago by Leo Gura