The Harshest Truth of Spiritual Development

[Davino]

@theleelajoker My point is that every individual is born with a different infinite possibility space 

[Ziran]

22 hours ago, Davino said:

It is extraordinarily rare to reach the highest states of consciousness — whether as stable baseline realizations or as insane peak states — unless one possesses exceptional, perhaps extreme, innate endowment.

 

In blunt terms: unless one is, in that domain, a genetic outlier.

 

The Spiritual Domain Is Not Exempt

 

Hello Davino, it's nice to meet you.  Thank you for the thought provoking topic.

Yes, because there's only one correct intellectual conception of the "highest states of consciousness", reaching these states requires significant intellectual resources and effort and/or just dumb luck.  It's a good reminder.     

[Davino]

17 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Tl;dr: genes.

Thinking you're innately less capable is partially genetic, but you can teach yourself to not do it, because it doesn't lead you anywhere. "But you should be realistic". Yes, about what you want, about what you feel you are a capable at. But don't feed yourself poison.

Yes you have a good point that we don't know the limit so we should just assume there aren't and shoot to the moon.

The harsh truth comes when you see someone directly born in the moon and they are shooting for another Galaxy.

[Davino]

1 minute ago, Ziran said:

Yes, because there's only one correct intellectual conception of the "highest states of consciousness", reaching these states requires significant intellectual resources and effort and/or just dumb luck.  It's a good reminder.     

There's a infinity of different high and complete states of consciousness, like a singularity breaking through in every direction and dimension while simultaneous collapsing into every direction and dimension for Infinity mirroring itself into more Absolute Infinities.

So it's not like there's one conception, there's Infinite Abundance, the doubt is how far you'll reach compared to others.

[Davino]

This NOT about genetics. This about LIMITS.

Contemplate on the nature of limits.

Edited 12 hours ago by Davino

[Ziran]

1 minute ago, Davino said:

it's not like there's one conception,

What I meant is, there's one and only one [ correct intellectual conception ] which includes them all.

5 minutes ago, Davino said:

There's a infinity of different high and complete states of consciousness

Hopefully I haven't misunderstood?  The "peak experience" or stable realization you referred to can be described, maybe, as a non-dual inclusion of these states within one's awareness?  If so, there can be one and only one complete non-dual realization which includes them all.  It makes sense that only a rare few would possess an intellect capable of apprehending such a realization, even for an single moment.  

[Jodistrict]

Shinzen Young couldn’t meditate until he practiced under a Vajrayana master in Japan. Tibetan Buddhists call it mind training.  It takes dedicated effort to slow down the momentum of the mind.  Most lazy westerners give up or fall under the delusion that taking a drug will do the same thing.    

[aurum]

9 hours ago, Davino said:

No amount of steroids will make you run faster than Usain Bolt with steroids

But certainly much faster than what you could do by any other means 

Fair.

But it also shouldn’t be assumed everyone needs or wants to run as fast as Usain Bolt on steroids.

[theleelajoker]

56 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Schmidt sells you Ideas like the universe has an intention and responds to your vibration . This sell well; people want to hear that. It could be that your inner vibration attracts events in a "magical" way, and that this could be proven by science in the future due to interdimensional quantum connections or something like that, and this would have no relation to opening yourself to the totality.

When he presents awakening as something mysterious that only happens by accident, he tries to make you believe he knows something very mysterious you don't, but that a select few will know. perhaps you're one of them. This sells very well. Siren songs to lure the unwary traveler.

Awakening doesn't depend on "spiritual" genetics or being "spiritually gifted," but rather on your will and intelligence to avoid falling into traps. Awakening is very simple: it's opening yourself to the totality, period. The totality has not intention because any intention is not total. Obvious right?

I don't know Daniel Schmidt well enough. Maybe it's true what you say, even if I didn't get the same impression as you got. But I sense lot of projection and I doubt you have seen his work?

Thing is, I do believe there is constant communication going on, and I do believe that there's SOME resonances mechanism with "external reality". Maybe I experience reality that way because I want to see it that way, maybe it's a case of John C Lilly's "whatever you believe either is true or becomes true". Don't know, it's simply the way I experience life.

Simple stuff I experienced like I say something now to person A, and a few minutes/ hours/ days later person B that was maybe 1000km away and never ever was in touch with person B picks up the exact context and words. That kind of resonance as one example.

Leaving this side-topic aside, my personal biggest awaking jump came from simply being present. Just sitting and moving attention though my body, or watching breath, or just sitting. 

So for you it's will, for me it's being present, for others it might be substances, or jerking off at midnight.

So what to take from it? Nothing. Nothing but personal experience. Many people project their experience into generalized "that's the way it's is". I think that's BS. I say no one knows how it works and just looks for a coherent story.

Of course, might be that I do that too - just with my own generalized story of " you are wrong it can't be known" 🤣

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, Davino said:

@theleelajoker My point is that every individual is born with a different infinite possibility space 

Maybe.

Maybe your point is just a symptom of the need to look for an explanation re your individual experience, labeling it as "truth" because it's to hard to just take things as they are and live without explanation in the mystery of life.

 

 

[Davino]

1 hour ago, aurum said:

But it also shouldn’t be assumed everyone needs or wants to run as fast as Usain Bolt on steroids.

Exactly!

As long as that is acknowledged 

[Davino]

@Ziran Watch Leo's two episodes on States of Consciousness is everything and The many facets of Awakening to gain deeper clarity on the topic. I'm sorry I can't explicitly explain it all to you now 

[James123]

On 2/18/2026 at 10:37 PM, Davino said:

(AI transcribed post from an audio contemplation)

 

There is a truth about spiritual development that very few are willing to articulate plainly.

 

Many people enter the spiritual path with an implicit assumption: that if they do everything correctly — meditate diligently, attend long retreats, practice yoga rigorously, explore psychedelics responsibly, dedicate years to contemplation and inquiry, become a full time monk — they will eventually reach the highest states of consciousness. They assume the path is meritocratic and universally attainable at its summit.

 

But after years of observation and dialogue with serious practitioners, a difficult conclusion emerges:

 

It is extraordinarily rare to reach the highest states of consciousness — whether as stable baseline realizations or as insane peak states — unless one possesses exceptional, perhaps extreme, innate endowment.

 

In blunt terms: unless one is, in that domain, a genetic outlier.

 

The Spiritual Domain Is Not Exempt

 

We accept biological inequality in nearly every other domain without protest.

 

Consider athletics.

 

No matter how disciplined you are, no matter how optimized your training, nutrition, recovery, or psychology, you will not outrun Usain Bolt. The gap is not merely effort-based; it is structural. It is encoded in muscle fiber composition, tendon elasticity, neural firing rates, biomechanics — variables largely determined before conscious striving begins.

 

The same applies in mathematics, music, physics, or art. When one studies the true geniuses — those who revolutionize a field — one finds not merely diligence but profound structural asymmetry: cognitive architecture, perceptual sensitivity, creative intuition, memory bandwidth, abstraction capacity...

 

Why, then, should spirituality and mysticism be exempt?

 

 

---

 

The Myth of Equal Attainability

 

Many practitioners believe they can reach the level of Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, or Muhammad if only they practice hard and intelligently enough.

 

But consider what is being claimed.

 

To reach (definition of terms excluded):

 

Serious baseline Awareness 

 

Peak Awakenings into a facet of Awakening 

 

Peak Awakenings into many facets and in conjunction

 

Holistic Awakenings across all facets.

 

Infinity Consciousness 

 

Realization of infinities for Infinity

 

Breakthrough into God-consciousness and God-Mode

 

And from there, further God Facet and Infinity Awakenings 

 

Even a single authentic awakening of those is already a huge blessing.

A few partial awakenings on limited facets are already extremely rare.

Totalized realization across all axes? That is vanishingly rare. Imagine to realise Infinity and God...

 

And yet many assume it is simply a matter of human mechanical effort.

 

 

---

 

The Uncomfortable Implication

 

This conclusion is discouraging.

 

It suggests that many sincere practitioners — even those dedicating thousands of hours to meditation, retreats, yoga, inquiry, psychedelics — may never reach the highest conceivable states in comparison with other gifted individuals.

 

Not because they failed.

 

But because the organism/manifestation has limits.

 

Genetic limits. Neurological limits. Structural limits.

 

The same way no amount of training will turn a very good runner into an Olympic record holder, the gap is quantum, no amount of practice may turn an average nervous system into a vehicle for absolute consciousness, an avatar.

 

Let me ground this in something concrete.

Recently, I spoke with someone who, by any reasonable metric, could be called a spiritual prodigy — what I've been calling a “genetic freak.” He described having solipsistic awakenings at the age of two. At two! Before doctrine. Before philosophy. Before influence. Before language was fully formed.

Throughout childhood and adolescence, he did not need to be introduced to spirituality. He did not “discover” it. He was already living it. He would wake up in the middle of the night to meditate. To pray. To contemplate God. Not because a teacher instructed him. Not because a book inspired him. Not because a forum persuaded him.

Because it was intrinsic.

That difference matters.

 

The Metric of Origin

One of the simplest diagnostics you propose is this:

If spirituality came to you from the outside — from a teacher, from religion, from philosophy, from a figure like Leo Gura, from a book, from psychedelics — then by definition, it was not native to your earliest structure of consciousness.

If, from the very first moment of self-awareness, your primary orientation was toward truth, God, metaphysics, infinity — then something structurally unusual was present from the beginning.

This is not about superiority. It is about origin and understanding the truth.

Some people discover the path.

Others are the path from the moment awareness crystallizes.

That distinction is not trivial...

 

---

 

The Deeper Paradox

 

And yet, paradoxically, this truth does not invalidate practice.

 

It reframes it.

 

Spiritual work may not be about reaching the maximal conceivable state. It may not be about becoming a once-in-history outlier of consciousness. It may instead be about:

Doing your absolute best and bending as much as possible all limitations in the way for higher and more complete consciousness (or whatever your spiritual goals or approach may be)

 

In fact, one might argue that the mature stage of spiritual development includes accepting limits — including the limits of genetics, embodiment, and this particular manifestation.

 

There may be states of consciousness that are simply inaccessible to this organism.

 

And that, too, is part of the truth.

 

 

---

 

End

Don't fall into false equivalence. Some are born already touching the sky — their first breath a question about God, their childhood a meditation, their nervous system intrinsically tuned to infinity. Others must carve their way upward through discipline, study, psychedelics, years of relentless refinement — and still may not reach Holistic Awakenings, Infinite Consciousness or God.

This is the structure of reality. Consciousness, like every domain of existence, expresses itself through gradients of capacity. There are prodigies of spirit just as there are prodigies of mind and body. To deny this is sentimentality. To resent it is immaturity.

 

Your task was never to become the best but to be your best — completely, honestly, without self-deception — whether it rises ten feet or touches the infinite sky.

And that, too as for all Infinity, is God.

I'll leave with this quote: "Even when you struggle to realise God, you're God"

There was a Jewish girl in Nazi concentration camp. She tried to escape many times. When they built a new wall, at that moment she had realized she could never be able to escape from that place.

Then she completely accepted that her entire life will be in there and ended up dying there. Therefore, She completely gave up, any hope, life expectations, goals etc.

That's when enlightenment hited her.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

and I doubt you have seen his work?

I didn't, Just his main ideas by curiosity . I'm not saying what he says is false, I'm saying it has no relation to enlightenment. 

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

Thing is, I do believe there is constant communication going on, and I do believe that there's SOME resonances mechanism with "external reality". Maybe I experience reality that way because I want to see it that way, maybe it's a case of John C Lilly's "whatever you believe either is true or becomes true". Don't know, it's simply the way I experience life.

It's very possible, but it's just something that happens and we cant explain, like quantum physics 100 years ago. Maybe the structure of reality is very complex and interconnected and what we understand is just the surface. 

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

Leaving this side-topic aside, my personal biggest awaking jump came from simply being present. Just sitting and moving attention though my body, or watching breath, or just sitting. 

What is an awakening?

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

 

 

1 hour ago, theleelajoker said:

I say no one knows how it works and just looks for a coherent story.

It's very simple. It's about dissolving the barrier that keeps you separate. Structurally, we are separate individuals; in essence, ontologically, we are reality. The point is to transcend the barriers that define you as an individual and be aware of yourself as reality.

 Reality isn't something defined, because if it were, it would be an individual. If it were God or consciousness, for example. It's nothing that can be named; as the Tao says, it is the totality. It's not thinkable; you can only be it. That's the only awakening or enlightenment, not knowing that everything is consciousness, or that you are god. Those are forms that the mind creates. The mind can create extremely precise and persuasive forms. 

[kavaris]

"It is extraordinarily rare to reach the highest states of consciousness"

I want to preface w/ something slightly off topic, but itll help yous see where im comin from (since this is more considering those who are exp, as opposed to the opposite, like those trying to go through said exp, and somehow not being able to arrive)... Like, before i consider ever replying to like the spiritual/philosophical things of this nature~I have to actually start at the Ousia, of like... Well you wouldnt call it traversing to the spectrum of light, as its like just a deepened *being* of sorts.

The word ive invented for it, like .. the ladder that leads to.., is called "-istemi", like when you drop down into that thing where like you are having flashbacks/PTSD lolol, like im giving a very bad description of it now that ive described it negative, nevertheless you either know what i mean or you dont.

And in dropping down to~What really is a positive (once you are use to) I see things maybe a little more clearly than wed normally be accustomed to; And im not really doing anything different or like, im not going very far out or anything, as its just one simple notch turned to the left or right, making all the difference.

But anyway, i personally dont see the "states of consciousness" thing as like, "that which we all aspire to". Granted, it is very like, mind altering, and it can jump start you towards what im bout to describe.

The thing im describing is literally like, *Yous are present within said states all the time* though the difference is just, relaxing into it~If you truly want it. To me, thats infinity. Its here and now. And its also why the Liminal threshold illustration is a pain in the ass, cause i cannot possibly illustrate how you go from a spectrum of *being—Infinity*, suddenly to "You are infinity"~Other than the fact that infinity directly stems from this thing called experience  (hence, ousia—exp.—light) (note: i started calling it light, and thats a long story).

But i mean, bottomline, im not saying you can logic your way to everything, but i am saying you can have had the exp., that everything is directly accessible, and from that point you can logic your way towards it~Towards that which is on the radar. That is all im saying in this post. Thank you. Hermes Trismegistus bless you.

Edited 8 hours ago by kavaris

[Ziran]

1 hour ago, Davino said:

@Ziran Watch Leo's two episodes on States of Consciousness is everything and The many facets of Awakening to gain deeper clarity on the topic. I'm sorry I can't explicitly explain it all to you now 

thank you, i'll do that. 

[Natasha Tori Maru]

Do we need to chase mystical experiences to develop spiritually?

There is more truth to a petal on a flower, than a mystical experience. 

To me, anyway  

I suppose we can perform certain actions to make us more 'accident prone'. And maybe genetics mean we might 'trip' more easily into an 'accident'. Psychedelics can certainly rip the ground from under us into 'accident' territory!

Could be just me that dislikes chasing 'mystical' elevated spiritual experience. At the end of the day, I find it to be just an experience. Divorced from what is.

Edited 7 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[cetus]

 

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

There is more truth to a petal on a flower, than a mystical experience. 

 I once watched a sunset and in it were infinite sunsets.

Edited 7 hours ago by cetus

[Natasha Tori Maru]

6 minutes ago, cetus said:

 

 I once watched a sunset and in it were infinite sunsets.

infinite flowers within a flower 

@Ramasta9

[cetus]

@Natasha Tori Maru Exactly.