A question about solipsism - am I missing something, or is there a step beyond?

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Zeidiez said:

@Leo Gura 

What I'm suggesting is that distinctions can exist within God without dividing God.

Of course they can.

However, if there are things outside of your consciousness, then you are not fully God.

A key to what I am telling you is that you need to become so conscious that nothing lies outside of your consciousness. As long as stuff lies outside your consciousness there is more Awakening to do.

When you are fully Awake there will be nothing outside you. That is the claim. You ain't that Awake yet so it still seems to you that other exists. From your limited consciousness other does exist, because you keep imagining it.

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So when you say that if "other" exists, it divides God's sovereignty, I want to push back gently. Does it? If God chooses to express itself through multiple perspectives, multiple subjective matrices, each one contained entirely within God's infinite mind... how does that limit God?

Notice that you are speaking of God as other to you.

It limits God if anything is outside its consciousness. As long as you imagine there is a God outside of you, that limits you because you are not fully realizing you are God.

If you fully realized you are God, nothing would be outside of your consciousness.

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This is what I mean by "distinction without separation." The distinctions are real from our perspective. But they don't create an outside to God. They're God experiencing Godself from infinite angles. One of those angles is You, from God's perspective.

Notice that you keep speaking of God as something other than you. As long as you keep framing God in that way you are correct in that you are not fully God.

You are the one who keeps framing yourself as merely a small part of God.

What I am telling you is, drop that frame and become ALL of God. Become identical to God.

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Now, about verification. You say: become so conscious that you see everything is your imagination. If you become conscious enough, you'll see you're imagining "other."

I believe you. I believe that's the experience. But here's my question, and I ask it genuinely: how do you distinguish between "I experienced the totality of The Infinite" and "I experienced the totality of my subjective matrix, which reflects The Infinite"?

At the level of consciousness I am talking about there is no such distinction.

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But reflecting the whole and being the whole are different things.

Okay. And what if you stop imagining that difference?

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Here's what makes me hesitant to claim I've experienced the totality: there are things I cannot imagine right now. I cannot imagine the color infrared. I cannot imagine what echolocation feels like for a bat. I cannot imagine the exact content of your subjective experience as you read this. These are not abstract limitations. They're concrete. Right now, that content is ineffable to me.

You are imagining those "missing" possibilities.

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If I were truly the totality of Infinite consciousness, why would anything be ineffable?

You are not infinitely totally conscious. I am telling you to become so. When you do, you will be Alone.

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But then how do you know your awakening isn't another layer of dream where now you dream you are everything?

Awakening is when you realize you are dreaming. It is lucidity within the dream. And there are many degrees of lucidity, which ends in Infinity.

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I think what happens in deep awakening is real. You dissolve the internal barriers of your subjective matrix. The separation between ego and the rest of your experiential content collapses. You become one with everything inside your bubble. And because that bubble is infinite in depth, it feels like becoming God.

Maybe it is becoming God, in a sense. The microcosm fully realizing its nature as reflection of the macrocosm.

Yes, but you keep making these distinctions of bubble, microcosm, inside. If you insist on making such distinctions then, yes, you are not fully God, you have made yourself a part. I am saying to stop doing that.

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But I'm not sure it's the same as being the totality.

Become TOTALITY.

Do it. Then you will understand why I say what I say.

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But what if God invented others? Not outside Himself, but within Himself. Not as illusions to be seen through, but as genuine perspectives to be loved.

Yes, well, then other is imaginary. As I said.

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But here's the key difference: Morty doesn't obliterate Roy when he wakes up. He preserves Roy inside himself as a genuine perspective. Not as an illusion to be discarded,

I am not telling you to discard yourself. You will still have a human POV after Awakening.

However, if you Awaken deeply enough you will die. I am not telling to do that. I am just describing what happens at very high consciousness.

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Maybe theoretically, if I kept awakening forever, I would eventually fully realize "I am God, that's all." 

Well, that is what I realized. It did not require Awakening forever, just high enough. It is not theoretical for me.

- - - - - -

This whole issue boils down to stop imagining others. If you don't want to stop then others will keep seeming real. The key is to realize that YOU are the one doing it. As long as you keep acting like you aren't God, then you aren't God, because you are God.

What would it be like to take 100% responsibility for creating everything that exists? To stop passing the buck to some imaginary other, including God.

That's hella challenging to do. But it can be done.

If you did that, that would be serious God-Realization.

Edited 13 hours ago by Leo Gura

[TheGod]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This whole issue boils down to stop imagining others. If you don't want to stop then others will keep seeming real. The key is to realize that YOU are the one doing it. As long as you keep acting like you aren't God, then you aren't God, because you are God.

I once reached this state of consciousness and when I did I experienced terror. 

I even called my best friend and as I was speaking to him I was so freaking conscious I was aware that I'm trying to fool myself. I thought I was going to lose my mind it was so radical. 

Now question to you Leo, was it Ego who was scared or was it God?

[Zeidiez]

Thank you, @Leo Gura . I think I see both positions clearly now.
Honestly, they might not even be contradictory. They might just be quantitative. We believe the same thing, the difference is whether anyone can actually experience the full Infinite while alive.
Here’s what I keep bumping into, and I say this with genuine humility: it seems easy for an awakening experience to be mistaken for The Infinite. I may think I’ve fully awakened… until I awaken further. And then what felt like the ceiling turns out to have been another floor.
Maybe when you die, experience becomes truly ineffable. Maybe death is God taking off the VR to put on the next one. I don’t know.
I understand that what you’ve experienced is ineffable to me right now. Maybe if I experienced it, I’d think exactly what you think.
But here’s the question I can’t shake: no matter how certain you are that what you experienced is The Infinite, how do you know that’s the end of awakening? How do you know there aren’t forms of experience so much more ineffable that they’re currently unimaginable even to you?
How do you know you’ve reached the bottom of an Infinite well?

[Monster Energy]

9 hours ago, Zeidiez said:

I’d say there are two different things getting conflated here.

One thing is the unity of the avatar/ego with the rest of my subjective matrix (the “place” where all conscious content is rendered). Another thing is getting to God’s perspective.

So yes, there’s no “beyond” outside Infinity/God. But there can still be a “beyond” outside my subjective matrix.

The ‘beyond’ you’re pointing to is a shift in perspective, not an ontological elsewhere. What changes isn’t reality, but the story of who is located where inside it

 

[Zeidiez]

36 minutes ago, Monster Energy said:

@Monster Energy The ‘beyond’ you’re pointing to is a shift in perspective, not an ontological elsewhere. What changes isn’t reality, but the story of who is located where inside it

Right, but if there are different perspectival locations, there’s a journey between them. That’s the “beyond” I’m pointing at. Not outside God, but deeper into God. The distance is real even if it’s perspectival.

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Zeidiez said:

Honestly, they might not even be contradictory.

It is sort of a function of how conscious you are. If your consciousness is low, then others are real. If consciousness is insanely high, then they are not. So solipsism is a view from a certain state of consciousness.

Elminating other requires insanely high consciousness which is very rare and impractical for normal human life. You can't really live from that place because even the difference between life and death evaporates. There is not a reason to survive at that level, which makes it dangerous.

Edited 8 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Monster Energy]

1 hour ago, Zeidiez said:

Right, but if there are different perspectival locations, there’s a journey between them. That’s the “beyond” I’m pointing at. Not outside God, but deeper into God. The distance is real even if it’s perspectival.

Calling a shift in perspective a ‘journey’ gives it narrative weight, not ontological depth. The distance feels real because change feels real, but nothing is being moved toward. Only the story of where you stand is changing.

 

[Nemra]

@Leo Gura, but aren't people, like anything else, real in the sense that they are forms that exist?

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, Nemra said:

@Leo Gura, but aren't people, like anything else, real in the sense that they are forms that exist?

It's like we are in a dream and I keep telling you it's a dream but you keep pointing to stuff in the dream and telling me, "But look, doesn't this thing here exist right now?"

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Hojo]

Its like an infinite dude meditating. And hes created run off thought patters. He started with pushing his energy up and down for breathing. Instead of paying attention to his breathing he dissociated into thoughts. To create a story of himself.

Edited 5 hours ago by Hojo

[Nemra]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's like we are in a dream and I keep telling you it's a dream but you keep pointing to stuff in the dream and telling me, "But look, doesn't this thing here exist right now?"

This dream must also be real in the sense that it exists. I'm not in another dream.

I wasn't trying to make a distinction between myself and others.

Edited 5 hours ago by Nemra

[Zeidiez]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

It is sort of a function of how conscious you are. If your consciousness is low, then others are real. If consciousness is insanely high, then they are not. So solipsism is a view from a certain state of consciousness.

Elminating other requires insanely high consciousness which is very rare and impractical for normal human life. You can't really live from that place because even the difference between life and death evaporates. There is not a reason to survive at that level, which makes it dangerous.

When you’re at that level, what is it about the experience itself that tells you it’s the Totality and not just a massive expansion? Is there something intrinsic to it that says “there’s no further” - or is that a conclusion you draw afterwards?

[Zeidiez]

6 hours ago, Monster Energy said:

Calling a shift in perspective a ‘journey’ gives it narrative weight, not ontological depth. The distance feels real because change feels real, but nothing is being moved toward. Only the story of where you stand is changing.

 

But there is an obvious shift in the quality of experience. You haven’t experienced echolocation, infrared colors, ultraviolet. The shift isn’t just narrative, it’s increased complexity in subjective experience. You can see this clearly with psychedelics, meditation, contemplative prayer. These possibilities seem unlimited.
Now, I understand your point: the “limit” of all this is precisely realizing we’ve always been One, the Infinite, God. Fine. I just see it differently. You see that realization as available now. I see it as theoretically possible, but to reach it, there’s a progressive awakening that produces precisely that shift. And that progression is infinite.
We might agree on the destination. We disagree on whether anyone actually arrives.

[OBEler]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

 

What would it be like to take 100% responsibility for creating everything that exists? To stop passing the buck to some imaginary other, including God.

That's hella challenging to do. But it can be done.

If you did that, that would be serious God-Realization.

That's exactly what sadghuru teaches you over and over again . Take 100% responsibility for everything because you create everything . He teaches god realization like you. Just in different style. How can you say he is not deep awakened. 

 

Edited 24 minutes ago by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

34 minutes ago, Zeidiez said:

When you’re at that level, what is it about the experience itself that tells you it’s the Totality and not just a massive expansion? Is there something intrinsic to it that says “there’s no further” - or is that a conclusion you draw afterwards?

Well, all Awakening is self-evident. There cannot be anything outside of Awakening to validate it with.

God has no one to ask, "Hey, bro, am I really God or am I just crazy?"

Self-deception is always possible. So there is never a guarantee you aren't somehow fooling yourself. This is always the case regardless of what you do.

For example, Peter Ralston swore to me and laughed at me that there can be no deeper Awakening than what he had. Then years later he discovered a deeper Awakening.

Could I realize something deeper in the future? Of course. I am counting on it.

23 minutes ago, OBEler said:

That's exactly what sadghuru teaches you over and over again . Take 100% responsibility for everything because you create everything . He teaches god realization like you. Just in different style. How can you say he is not deep awakened. 

Well, he is Awakened, the question is to what degree, which is hard to answer.

I got nothing against Sadhguru. Learn from him if you wish. Of course there will be overlap between my teachings and any serious yogi. I push Kriya yoga too.

Edited 1 minute ago by Leo Gura