Leo can't fix you because you are Neurodivergent

[Bogdan]

 

I started learning more about neurodivergence and neurotipicality. I thought I'd leave Sam Vaknin's perspective to add to the discussion, as I find him being pretty up to date with "stuff" in general.

Right in this moment I'm not able to recall all of this thread's or the video's points, but from the top of my head it seems like:

- NTs flock together with other NTs

- same for NDs with other NDs

- people use the term ND too loosely, wrongly equating it with mental illnesses that may have nothing to do with ND

- NTs should learn that NDs function differently and should learn how to let them take their proper place in society

[Cred]

3 hours ago, Human Mint said:

the fact that any human will need to do hard-work to accomplish anything valuable

Edit: I am using the label ND too broadly here. What I mean more specifically is passion oriented people/ADHD/executive dysfunction. Thanks @Human Mint for pointing that out.

You are correct that talking about "hard work" is crucial in an ND discussion. Thanks for reminding me.

The sentence above is exactly wrong. 

The reason why you think this is because you still live too deep in NT Land.

The concept "Hard work" mean completely different things for an ND and for an NT.

Comparing the "hard work" ability of an NT person with those of an ND person is like comparing the boxing ability of Mike Tyson with those of some nerd with no arms. This nerd could be Albert fucking Einstein, and he would still have low self-esteem their whole lives if they were to compare their boxing abilities to Mike Tysons.

Coping "tricks" like gamification and all this shit is like saying to Einstein: "You can beat Mike Tyson if you believe in yourself! You just have to use your forehead!". You are banging your head against a wall when you do this.

Being productive for an NT person always takes them roughly the same amount of energy and willpower no matter what they do (I know this sounds completely unbelievable). This means they are literal Mike Tysons at doing boring shit. This is, again, also why they are usually not productive during leisure time (aka no hobbies). In addition, it's why they think that people have to work to be happy bc they wouldn't know what to do with all that time.

Nothing I've done the last view days felt like hard work. No NT could ever communicate this much information without it feeling like hard work. This is one of the superpowers of NDs. When an ND is motivated to do something, it costs them discipline NOT to pursue that thing (I'm failing miserably at not doing this btw). The downside is that having to do boring shit feels excruciating.

This is why you need to avoid doing boring shit like the literal plague, which you already do, but I'm enabling you and I am telling you not to feel bad about sucking at discipline. You need to question why "hard work" is so valued in society. No, it is like boxing. No one here gives a shit if someone is good at boxing so why is this not the same with hard work.

To circle back to your point: If they had a butler who would feed them, do all their chores, do all the paperwork, etc. an ND would absolutely be able to create the most marvelous creations of genius and creativity you have ever seen without EVER working hard.

But this is unrealistic, of course. You will have to be disciplined some of the time. JUST STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO MIKE TYSON!

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Cred

[Joseph Maynor]

6 minutes ago, Cred said:

You are correct that talking about "hard work" is crucial in an ND discussion. Thanks for reminding me.

The sentence above is exactly wrong. 

The reason why you think this is because you still live too deep in NT Land.

The concept "Hard work" mean completely different things for an ND and for an NT.

Comparing the "hard work" ability of an NT person with those of an ND person is like comparing the boxing ability of Mike Tyson with those of some nerd with no arms. This nerd could be Albert fucking Einstein, and he would still have low self-esteem their whole lives if they were to compare their boxing abilities to Mike Tysons.

Coping "tricks" like gamification and all this shit is like saying to Einstein: "You can beat Mike Tyson if you believe in yourself! You just have to use your forehead!". You are banging your head against a wall when you do this.

Being productive for an NT person always takes them roughly the same amount of energy and willpower no matter what they do (I know this sounds completely unbelievable). This means is they are literal Mike Tysons at doing boring shit. This is, again, also why they are usually not productive during leisure time (aka no hobbies). 

Nothing I've done the last view days felt like hard work. No NT could ever communicate this much information without it feeling like hard work. This is one of the superpowers of NDs. When an ND is motivated to do something, it costs them discipline NOT to pursue that thing (I'm failing miserably at not doing this btw). The downside is that having to do boring shit feels excruciating.

This is why you need to avoid doing boring shit like the literal plague, which you already do, but I'm enabling you and I am telling you not to feel bad about sucking at discipline. You need to question why "hard work" is so valued in society. No, it is like boxing. No one here gives a shit if someone is good at boxing so why is this not the same with hard work.

To circle back to your point: If they had a butler who would feed them, do all their chores, do all the paperwork, etc. an ND would absolutely be able to create the most marvelous creations of genius and creativity you have ever seen without EVER working hard.

But this is unrealistic, of course. You will have to be disciplined some of the time. JUST STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO MIKE TYSON!

 

 

It's actually a little tricker than you're suggesting, but you make some good points. Self-help is a subject that can be learned like any subject, and no, you don't need to beat yourself up or be a glutton for punishment to change what you work on.

[CARDOZZO]

14 minutes ago, Cred said:

You are correct that talking about "hard work" is crucial in an ND discussion. Thanks for reminding me.

The sentence above is exactly wrong. 

The reason why you think this is because you still live too deep in NT Land.

The concept "Hard work" mean completely different things for an ND and for an NT.

Comparing the "hard work" ability of an NT person with those of an ND person is like comparing the boxing ability of Mike Tyson with those of some nerd with no arms. This nerd could be Albert fucking Einstein, and he would still have low self-esteem their whole lives if they were to compare their boxing abilities to Mike Tysons.

Coping "tricks" like gamification and all this shit is like saying to Einstein: "You can beat Mike Tyson if you believe in yourself! You just have to use your forehead!". You are banging your head against a wall when you do this.

Being productive for an NT person always takes them roughly the same amount of energy and willpower no matter what they do (I know this sounds completely unbelievable). This means they are literal Mike Tysons at doing boring shit. This is, again, also why they are usually not productive during leisure time (aka no hobbies). This is also why they think that people have to work to be happy bc they wouldn't know what to do with all that time.

Nothing I've done the last view days felt like hard work. No NT could ever communicate this much information without it feeling like hard work. This is one of the superpowers of NDs. When an ND is motivated to do something, it costs them discipline NOT to pursue that thing (I'm failing miserably at not doing this btw). The downside is that having to do boring shit feels excruciating.

This is why you need to avoid doing boring shit like the literal plague, which you already do, but I'm enabling you and I am telling you not to feel bad about sucking at discipline. You need to question why "hard work" is so valued in society. No, it is like boxing. No one here gives a shit if someone is good at boxing so why is this not the same with hard work.

To circle back to your point: If they had a butler who would feed them, do all their chores, do all the paperwork, etc. an ND would absolutely be able to create the most marvelous creations of genius and creativity you have ever seen without EVER working hard.

But this is unrealistic, of course. You will have to be disciplined some of the time. JUST STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO MIKE TYSON!

 

 

The problem is that you have to know how to navigate reality no matter how you are feeling today or tomorrow.

Consistency is rewarded because it gets the job done.

[Cred]

13 minutes ago, Cred said:

This is, again, also why they are usually not productive during leisure time (aka no hobbies). In addition, it's why they think that people have to work to be happy bc they wouldn't know what to do with all that time.

Notice that the NT vs ND distinction is an insight machine. It is a well without a bottom. You don't properly understand conformity and genius if you are not aware of the ND framework.

[Cred]

1 minute ago, CARDOZZO said:

The problem is that you have to know how to navigate reality no matter how you are feeling today or tomorrow.

Consistency is rewarded because it gets the job done.

I'm not arguing against that. Navigating through life as an ND is hard, but it is much harder when you don't know that you are ND.

[CARDOZZO]

39 minutes ago, Cred said:

I'm not arguing against that. Navigating through life as an ND is hard, but it is much harder when you don't know that you are ND.

I agree. 

How can ND's fit as perfectly as NT's into society? Impossible?

[Joseph Maynor]

16 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

The problem is that you have to know how to navigate reality no matter how you are feeling today or tomorrow.

Consistency is rewarded because it gets the job done.

This is true.  But how does one develop this consistency? -- which requires a change -- or else there would be no problem.

[Human Mint]

36 minutes ago, Cred said:

You are correct that talking about "hard work" is crucial in an ND discussion. Thanks for reminding me.

The sentence above is exactly wrong. 

The reason why you think this is because you still live too deep in NT Land.

The concept "Hard work" mean completely different things for an ND and for an NT.

Comparing the "hard work" ability of an NT person with those of an ND person is like comparing the boxing ability of Mike Tyson with those of some nerd with no arms. This nerd could be Albert fucking Einstein, and he would still have low self-esteem their whole lives if they were to compare their boxing abilities to Mike Tysons.

Coping "tricks" like gamification and all this shit is like saying to Einstein: "You can beat Mike Tyson if you believe in yourself! You just have to use your forehead!". You are banging your head against a wall when you do this.

Being productive for an NT person always takes them roughly the same amount of energy and willpower no matter what they do (I know this sounds completely unbelievable). This means they are literal Mike Tysons at doing boring shit. This is, again, also why they are usually not productive during leisure time (aka no hobbies). In addition, it's why they think that people have to work to be happy bc they wouldn't know what to do with all that time.

Nothing I've done the last view days felt like hard work. No NT could ever communicate this much information without it feeling like hard work. This is one of the superpowers of NDs. When an ND is motivated to do something, it costs them discipline NOT to pursue that thing (I'm failing miserably at not doing this btw). The downside is that having to do boring shit feels excruciating.

This is why you need to avoid doing boring shit like the literal plague, which you already do, but I'm enabling you and I am telling you not to feel bad about sucking at discipline. You need to question why "hard work" is so valued in society. No, it is like boxing. No one here gives a shit if someone is good at boxing so why is this not the same with hard work.

To circle back to your point: If they had a butler who would feed them, do all their chores, do all the paperwork, etc. an ND would absolutely be able to create the most marvelous creations of genius and creativity you have ever seen without EVER working hard.

But this is unrealistic, of course. You will have to be disciplined some of the time. JUST STOP COMPARING YOURSELF TO MIKE TYSON!

 

 

Fine. It's a model. But you present it as the final solution to my problems. Which is childish.

All the minds are interconnected as one mind. That alone is a much powerful concept than all of your mental gymnastics. And it is true.

Seeing that any human is very different in terms of personality and emotional responses is a crucial skill of life. Like actually something of priority to know about. And I agree with you in that.

But I don't face the challenges you so confidently potrait I do. I know my uniqueness and it took me years to develop that knowing. Did I stop understanding myself? Absolutely not. But this model is very little insight compared to all that I've learned these years. I am not saying there aren't valuable things to extract, and you might be into something here. But I suggest you polish your delivery.

[Cred]

50 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But how does one develop this consistency?

Edit: I am using the label ND too broadly here. What I mean more specifically is passion oriented people/ADHD/executive dysfunction. Thanks @Human Mint for pointing that out.

Constistency is, like hard work, the cryptonite of NDs. This is because NDs function with motivation and it is really hard to influence that.

One thought I had a lot in my life, maybe many people here can relate with is: "If I could just make myself like that thing as much as this thing my problems would be solved".

But this is again one of those coping "tricks" that don't lead to sustainable results I found. Our brain is just way to erratic to be able to commit to one thing or make longterm plans.

So my advice regarding consistency is the same as with hard work. Try to avoid it.

Edited 2 hours ago by Cred

[Joseph Maynor]

13 minutes ago, Cred said:

Constistency is, like hard work, the cryptonite of NDs. This is because NDs function with motivation and it is really hard to influence that.

One thought I had a lot in my life, maybe many people here can relate with is: "If I could just make myself like that thing as much as this thing my problems would be solved".

But this is again one of those coping "tricks" that don't lead to sustainable results I found. Our brain is just way to erratic to be able to commit to one thing or make longterm plans.

So my advice regarding consistency is the same as with hard work. Try to avoid it.

You can definitely work on your motivation!  I don't care who you are.  This is creation.  Yes, true not everyone wants to even attempt to do this, but that's different.

[Joshe]

3 hours ago, Cred said:

But what’s even worse is the possibility that he didn’t just lie to us, but he also lied to himself (which is actually more likely imo).

Enormous implications. Quick! Sweep this under the rug before it does damage. 

[PenguinPablo]

9 hours ago, Hojo said:

@PenguinPabloWhats this person feeling?

No multiple choice because you dont get that in real life. Multiple choice on a face reading exercise is bogus. You are just guessing at that point. You are not 'reading' someone face you are looking at eyes and making a guess based on the answers they give you.

On some of them I did guess.

However, on some of them the emotion came to my mind and then I chose the emotion most similar to what I felt.

On others I would look at the face first. Then look at the answer choices and intuitively select the choice that "felt" like what I felt from the eyes.

I got 29 as a score which I think was slightly higher than the neurotypical average.

It was also a bit stressful and draining taking the test for me. Not cognitively but emotionally draining. 

By your standard of multiple choice tests not meaning anything, you should go revamp the entire education system since multiple choice doesn't mean anything. 

I'm not sure how effective this test is specifically for what it purportedly  measures but I can understand the reasoning for it's design. 

That's why you can't evaluate autism with a single test.

Edited 2 hours ago by PenguinPablo

[Hojo]

@PenguinPablo You got emotionally drained taking the test? Why?

Multiple choice is fine for testing but not this testing. Its like read a map, here are multiple choices about how you can read the map. ?????

I wouldn't have said 90 percent of the feelings they described as a blind read.

I can gurantee if you took this test as a blind read you would never say these eyes look very tentative. Nobody would so you are essentially guessing out of 4 multiple choice answers given. Its a farce test.

The reason multiple choice is garbage for this test is because without it you wouldn't get any answers right.

essentially you aren't reading the eyes, you are reading the multiple choice and comparing it to what it might be.

Edited 2 hours ago by Hojo

[Cred]

@Human Mint Sorry, I did not mean to devalue your knowledge. Of course, all the insights that you ever had still hold value, also those about conformity. Knowledge about ND is so much more powerful in the hands of somebody who already has a lot of knowledge of spirituality, psychology, society etc. This is why it's so fulfilling to me to talk about it here.

You are right, that I was using the ND label too broadly in the two posts above, thanks for pointing that out! I will edit it.

Edited 2 hours ago by Cred

[Cred]

13 minutes ago, Joshe said:

Enormous implications. Quick! Sweep this under the rug before it does damage. 

chill

[PenguinPablo]

@Hojo For the example you provided specifically fear or shyness came to mind.

For some of the photos I knew the emotion already without looking at the multiple choice. 

Because I tried to discern it first before biasing myself with the answer choices.

[Cred]

1 hour ago, CARDOZZO said:

How can ND's fit as perfectly as NT's into society? Impossible?

 

1 hour ago, Cred said:

If they had a butler who would feed them, do all their chores, do all the paperwork, etc. an ND would absolutely be able to create the most marvelous creations of genius and creativity you have ever seen without EVER working hard.

The chances for an ND to fit into society as well as NTs is almost as unlikely to happen as this thought experiment. But you can get close. I think you could do it like Leo and convince enough or just some of the right people of the value of your work.

This does not mean that NDs and NTs are equal in this society. I don't think they can ever be archived during capitalism tbh.

Edited 2 hours ago by Cred

[Natasha Tori Maru]

I think thriving is hard for everyone in different domains. NT or ND.

Everyone can develop consistency. Passion. Pick a domain. You are a creativity machine!

It's not a mental thing, it's an action thing. Physically do the thing and the mental rewiring follows. Engage. 

No one wants to hear this. 

Edited 2 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[CARDOZZO]

44 minutes ago, Cred said:

 

The chances for an ND to fit into society as well as NTs is almost as unlikely to happen as this thought experiment. But you can get close. I think you could do it like Leo and convince enough or just some of the right people of the value of your work.

This does not mean that NDs and NTs are equal in this society. I don't think they can ever be archived during capitalism tbh.

Let's assume that Nikola Tesla and Newton were NDs. NDs will need to create their own careers, paths, mindsets to navigate reality.