Leo can't fix you because you are Neurodivergent

[Natasha Tori Maru]

3 minutes ago, Joshe said:

The point of ND, for me, was to shine a light on those shadows. It has nothing to do with labels, unless you’re an egotist. 

How come you were unable to see your shadows without the label?

[theleelajoker]

7 minutes ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

Yeah, it seems to be the actual root issue behind the surface discussion regarding labels/concepts/ideas. It's not about ND not ND. NT not NT. It could be anything. It's the underlying theme behind the human drive towards concept/idea/label in an attempt to seek existential meaning. Without investigating what meaning is, in an of itself.

There appears to be attachment present. And reassurance / relief from said attachment. Evidence by emotional attribution. 

This is actually counter to equinimity. 

There's a huge mix of users who are more direct experience based, and those more concept/thought based. Sometimes there isn't the realisation the concept/thought/idea/label acts as a cataract between the eyes and the vision/truth.

This is a heavy model/concept thread. 

I am aligned with your view. But I don't want to engage, pick my battles etc 🥹

Strong agreement. Well said IMO.

Seeing and seeking meaning in words instead of experience. Been there. Still do it, but less and less. The IWOW and the samahdi series of Daniel Schmidt is amazing re this topic. 

Re this forum : it's a good testing ground here to express some methods, ideas etc. And it's entertaining Sometimes also a little bit of positive influence can be created. But truly meaningful interactions are IME better placed 1) IRL 2) with people actively seeking change instead of confirmation 

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Joshe said:

It seems you think acceptance of the idea would hamper your development. But we're saying it would increase it. The healthy way is not to use it as a crutch or to just throw your hands up and say "fuck it, this is just the way I am - no development for me", but rather to not fight yourself and to design life around the REAL constraints you have.

By accepting it, you can actually be more true to yourself and go after things you truly enjoy. For example, for some, they may feel liberated from all the social pressure and accept that they will never be what society wants them to be, and they might realize they don't REALLY value that anyway, so they can accept forgoing some bullshit society wants them to deal with, and instead focus on what they ACTUALLY enjoy. 

You can't imagine the liberation of such deep self-acceptance until you drop the load of bricks you've been carrying. Most here are carrying a load of bricks around and don't even know it. 

Dropping them let's you stop wasting energy fighting the wrong battles. It makes merging with your true, authentic self easy, and it lets you do it without apology - all you have to do is accept it. This is deep shit bro. If you experienced what I did, it was absolutely revelatory and healing, as in extremely healthy and good for me. 

So, if most here are autistic, there's a good chance they too can partake in the healing. Not sure why you'd be against that. 

It's good that you've used the neurotypical-neurodivergent terminology to find out whether you're acting in line with what you really want. That has been my main occupation my entire life. My internal feeling for what I want, is a 190 decibel siren. I'm the idealist.

It might benefit other people, so do what you think is best.

[Hojo]

@JosheThis has nothing to do with the label. Its the reactions they have been bullied into feeling, because of how their mind is structured. You can throw every label out and blanket state say react however you want to everyone. Its just unconscious karma, the same thing everyone has even regular people. This is not specific to the neurodivergent. Its just neurodivergent people are bullied into using their structures differently so alot of the unconcious karma is negative. The books you read didnt make you realize that you 'dont have the structrues' its teaching you, you are using your structures wrong, because of bullying.

When you cry about it means you are throwing this trash out, you arent making realizations about anything, you are finally freeing your mind from its cage.

If you ever awaken its like that feeling times 1 trillion.

Edited 9 hours ago by Hojo

[Natasha Tori Maru]

@theleelajoker

To be clear I'm not shitting on concepts/ideas/labels or thought. They have their use and they are absolutely an asset.

But we if are talking spiritual process, freeing, acceptance, integration, ending unnessecary suffering and awakening - as you start to dissolve conditioning we see how these things act to fuck everything up. So you learn exactly when to throw them away, and when you use them.

It also becomes very clear when others are using them to identify with ego, centralising experience. Rather than dissolving the subject / object relationship we have and being within experience in a nonlocal, free way. No judgement. Only discernment.

It's like seeing the clouds and saying 'those are MY clouds, MY sky' 'MY ideas, MY thoughts' 

Not sure if this resonates with you? I think you understand this part of the path ❤️

Edited 9 hours ago by Natasha Tori Maru

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Autistics seem to use rules for determining emotional expression, non-autistics seem to use vibes. Vibes seem to be more efficient and more accurate when you only have the eyes to go by (the test is apparently time sensitive; I did not know that the first time I took the test).

I am heavily vibe-oriented, but I also love theory too, and not even.  It just depends.  I'm weirder than neurodivergence it seems.

[theleelajoker]

1 hour ago, Natasha Tori Maru said:

@theleelajoker

To be clear I'm not shitting on concepts/ideas/labels or thought. They have their use and they are absolutely an asset.

But we if are talking spiritual process, freeing, acceptance, integration, ending unnessecary suffering and awakening - as you start to dissolve conditioning we see how these things act to fuck everything up. So you learn exactly when to throw them away, and when you use them.

It also becomes very clear when others are using them to identify with ego, centralising experience. Rather than dissolving the subject / object relationship we have and being within experience in a nonlocal, free way. No judgement. Only discernment.

It's like seeing the clouds and saying 'those are MY clouds, MY sky' 'MY ideas, MY thoughts' 

Not sure if this resonates with you? I think you understand this part of the path ❤️

Yes they have their use, but IMO are very often understood and used in a way a) where the tool becomes the goal b) it's "wrongly" used. Use a knife to cut your food, not to cut your toenails 

You remember the thread about "universal mind"? Categories re people lose a lot of their relevance once the fluidity of the mind and the mask of personality becomes more transparent 

[Cred]

8 hours ago, Joshe said:

I tried to organize some of my notes from the rabbit hole about 3 months back. 

Level 1 Autism requires some support, level 2 requires substantial support, and level 3 requires very substantial support. This list mostly describes level 1 and severity can vary and not all traits are universal. 

Diagnosis & Demographics

• Men are diagnosed 3-4x higher than females
• Females mask more effectively than males
• Many autistic people get diagnosed with ADHD first
• Autism runs in families and is often multi-generational
  • Not uncommon to have multiple siblings, cousins, aunts, and uncles all autistic
  • Often undiagnosed across generations
  • Ever wondered what was wrong with your family? lol

Social Patterns

General Tendencies

• Comfortable with isolation
• Preferring not to talk unless necessary
• One or two people as entire social world
• Hyper-focused once latched onto something

Autistic-to-Autistic Connection

• Autistic people often recognize and gravitate toward each other
• Even without knowing you're both autistic, there's often an unspoken "getting it"
• Understanding of social exhaustion
• Direct communication styles match
• Less exhausting social interaction
• Don't have to mask as much—less judgment about "weird" behaviors or interests
• Similar conversational patterns (info-dumping, special interests)
• Neurotypical relationships often require constant translation and masking
• Autistic people do tend to partner with other autistic people at higher rates than chance

Special Interests

• Autistic people often have a "special interest" they are highly competent in
• Can present as obsessive pattern recognition and mastery
• Deep, intense focus on specific topics
• Can talk extensively about interest
• More intense than typical "hobbies"
• Self-teaching through obsessive focus
• "Geeking on" specific topics

Sensory Processing

The Underlying Mechanism

• The autistic nervous system processes sensory input differently—often more intensely
• Bright lights, background noise, textures, smells all require active filtering
• This happens constantly and unconsciously drains energy

Sensory Overload Examples

• Discomfort with unexpected physical contact
• Clothing tags, seams, certain fabrics unbearable
• Can't stand certain textures against skin
• Light touch more irritating than firm pressure
• Loud commercials unbearable
• Background noise draining
• Bright lights uncomfortable
• Need for dim, quiet environments
• Bothered by chewing/breathing sounds from others
• Can't filter out background conversations—hears everything equally
• Sudden sounds (doors slamming, dogs barking) physically jarring

Self-Soothing & Stimming

• Listening to the same song on repeat (sometimes for hours/days)
• Repeating words, phrases, or sounds (echolalia)
• Rewatching the same movies/shows repeatedly
• Cracking knuckles or joints
• Running mental loops (replaying conversations, scenarios)
• Organizing/categorizing as a calming activity
• Info-dumping (talking about special interest is regulating)
• Often self-medicates to soothe nervous system
• Hand rubbing
• Knee bouncingFoot shaking
• Fidgeting
• Pacing
• Humming
• Finger wiggling
• Rocking

Executive Function & Task Initiation

Why "Simple" Tasks Are Hard

• Requires constant mental energy to self-initiate tasks
• Can do complex things BUT struggle with "simple" things
• Starting a task actually involves multiple processes:
  • Recognize it needs to be done
  • Shift attention from current focus
  • Plan the sequence of steps
  • Overcome inertia to begin
  • Monitor progress and stay on track
• Weaker Automaticity
  • Weaker habit formation: The brain doesn't create automatic "if-then" connections as easily ("if it's 8am, then make coffee")
  • Every time feels like the first time: Tasks don't become automatic through repetition as readily
  • Manual override required: What happens automatically for others requires conscious, deliberate thought each time
• Time Perception
  • Difficulty perceiving the passage of time accurately
  • "Just five more minutes" turns into an hour
  • May hyperfocus on something and completely lose track of time

Routine & Flexibility

• Self-imposed schedules require constant self-monitoring and discipline. (Level 1 autistics typically have enough executive function and self-awareness to create schedules and know they need structure, but not enough automaticity for those schedules to run themselves.)
• What was manageable yesterday might be overwhelming today
• If one thing goes off schedule, the whole day can feel derailed
• Difficulty improvising or adjusting when unexpected things happen
• Rigid thinking can make it hard to restart a routine once it's disrupted
• Complete shutdown when facing unfamiliar situations

Context Switching & Transitions

• Moving from one activity to another requires "resetting" the brain
• Autistic brains often excel at deep focus but struggle with transitions
• Each task switch depletes mental resources more rapidly
• High cost to transition between activities
• Difficulty shifting attention
• Need time between different tasks

Energy & Burnout

Unpredictable Energy

• Fluctuating daily capacity
• Good days vs. bad days with no clear pattern

The Burnout Cycle

• Intense focus → depletion → shutdown
• Need significant recovery time
• Can't "just push through"
• Physical/emotional collapse from prolonged stress

Shutdown Responses

• Going silent, non-responsive
• Complete inability to engage
• Not just tired—system offline
• Need to withdraw completely

Project Abandonment Pattern

• Intense 3-5 day focus, then can't return
• Many unfinished projects
• Difficulty restarting after breaks

Masking & Compensating

• Monitoring their own behavior to appear "normal"
• Suppressing stims (self-soothing repetitive behaviors like bouncing the knee)
• Scripting and rehearsing conversations
• Managing facial expressions and tone of voice manually

Cognitive Styles

• Concrete vs. abstract thinking:
  • High-IQ autistic: strong abstract reasoning
  • Average/below-average IQ autistic: concrete, literal
  • Can be either—but thought process is detail-oriented
• Metacognition varies widely between autistic individuals

Work & Achievement

Career Patterns

• Staying in same role for decades
• Solo work preference
• Struggle with workplace social demands
• Underemployment despite intelligence
• Frequent job changes OR extreme job stability

The "Squandered Potential" Narrative

• High intelligence + poor achievement
• "Gifted kid" who "didn't live up to potential"
• Teachers noticing mismatch between ability and output

This deserves a seperate thread

[Cred]

5 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

@Joshe

You do you. 

Don't see that further input form my side is constructive.

 

I think this is totally fair.

5 hours ago, Joshe said:

Very professional. You seeking a mod role? Lol. Cheers buddy 

Chill, my guy. I think all of their reactions are completely justified. Have you never been offended at people diagnosing you with ND before you knew you were autistic?  I remember always being very offended when somebody asked whether I have ADHD. I also remember arguing with people who thought I was autistic. I myself also got hit with the "I've never seen a non-autistic person say this" in the past lol (context: I said "if I'm annoying, you can throw me out any time". The guy is autistic himself and has an autistic friend group)

The fact that they were right and we are right now does not change the fact that the language we are using is intrusive. You need to keep that in mind. The best we can do is put it on their radar and then it's on them to start connecting the dots. This takes a very long time necessarily. Healthy awakening takes time. 

[Alexop]

I was a lot more vibe driven and "just do it" guy. That until I realised how important theory is, then I started to do stuff in a strategic Theory based manner.

[Carl-Richard]

7 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Anybody want to take this test? It's supposed to diagnose autism:

https://embrace-autism.com/reading-the-mind-in-the-eyes-test/

I remember I scored 34/36 the first time I took it (higher score indicates less autism). So that would mean I'm supremely not-autistic. But you could say I'm neurodivergent, because it's way outside the normal range (the range in a sample of n = 19 neurotypicals was 23-30).

Maybe everybody is autistic indeed if nobody wants to take the test 😝 It's only 2-3 minutes usually.

[Joshe]

4 hours ago, Cred said:

The fact that they were right and we are right now does not change the fact that the language we are using is intrusive. You need to keep that in mind. The best we can do is put it on their radar and then it's on them to start connecting the dots. This takes a very long time necessarily. Healthy awakening takes time. 

You’re right. 

[integration journey]

9 hours ago, Hojo said:

@Carl-RichardI have every mental illness and conquered them all. That means living peacefully with them.

Also I dont think an autistic person would know what half those words mean in the test. They are highly specific.

How to conquer ADD to do better at graduate school  ?

[Hojo]

@integration journey I didnt go to graduate school to conquer add. School is indoctrination.

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, Alexop said:

I was a lot more vibe driven and "just do it" guy. That until I realised how important theory is, then I started to do stuff in a strategic Theory based manner.

They're kinda 2 sides of a coin IMO.  Because I'm trained in music improvisation, I'm very off the cuff.  Ideally though, there would be the right mixture between vibe-driven and strategic.  Spinoza anticipated this in his epistemology where there is sense experience, then reason, then intuition (ascending in importance).  Sense experience would be vibe, but ideally it would be considered through reason and then through intuition to be best aligned.