Leo can't fix you because you are Neurodivergent

[Hojo]

@Joshe Saying they don't have the structure but can realize the not having of a structure is beyond retarded. If you can read a book that points out your lack of structure and you can understand what its talking it about it means you have it. Or it would be like a book teaching you a colour you've never seen.

Maybe for the autistic punching himself in the face its true but not for you an intelligent being 

Edited 7 hours ago by Hojo

[Joshe]

23 minutes ago, theleelajoker said:

Me: recommending a book that shows how easily (parts of) the brain fools us when building models. And how we stick to it despite overwhelming evidence. (Watzlawik is also a good source)

You: "my model is correct"

😂😂😂

Me: What he pointed out is trivial to me. 

You: Gloss over the potentially devastating point about seeing distinctions as useless abstractions. 

You're allergic to distinctions that you think involve "identity". But notice how you're fine with other distinctions. 

I can hold distinctions about people separate from identity, so it's not a problem for me, but this rubs you the wrong way. See our conversation from several months ago about the attractiveness scale from 1-10. Whether you like it or not, these distinctions exist. It is possible to hold them without ego-interference.

Trying to ignore the distinction that one thing is more beautiful than another thing is to deny reality. It is possible to notice/accept the distinction without an unhealthy response to it. 

Edited 7 hours ago by Joshe

[Xonas Pitfall]

2 hours ago, theleelajoker said:

I'm unique, with a unique perspective of life. Same as anyone else.

I’m uniquely unique. I’m so unique that I’m special in my own way, but I also recognize that everyone else is special and unique too. I’m uniquely unique in a way that makes me special, but the kind of special that only works if everyone else is also special, which means my uniqueness depends on your uniqueness, which then loops back and confirms mine again. I’m so uniquely unique that I have to acknowledge everyone else’s uniqueness just to keep mine functioning properly. That makes me special, but only in a very normal way, the most average kind of special possible, like a perfectly balanced human being with an average IQ and an unremarkable label that I don’t use because labels would interrupt the loop.

I don’t divide people into neurotypical or neurodivergent, because that would make things asymmetrical, and my uniqueness requires symmetry. So instead I remain normal, which is its own special category of unique, which brings us back to the beginning, where I am uniquely unique again, but only because everyone else is too. I am special 

[Carl-Richard]

ND and NT are just funny words for being different or similar to other people, which applies to everybody and in different ways. It's a spectrum. Masking is what everybody does, it's essentially about aligning yourself with an outside social standard. Some are just worse at picking up the required standards, some just feel like they have to mask more or are just less comfortable with it than others. They will maybe identify with a label like ND or autistic. But it can be a trap to identify yourself too much with such labels or use them to think you somehow are not fit or don't belong in society.

[Joshe]

[Basman]

Jumping to conclusions the thread.

[lostingenosmaze]

Thread theme:

 

[Cred]

10 hours ago, Alexop said:

Even enjoying time with friends needs theory nowadays. We got so fucked up that we need to learn how to socialize, what to say, what not to say.

Lol this is literally the funniest thing you could have said. I'm not even sure if you're trolling. Let me be very clear: This thing that you said is absolutely 100% solid proof that you're autistic and don't understand how neurotypical people function. It is the definition of autism.

Non autostic people do all the steps of socializing completely automatic without even thinking a single thought in the process. That's what it means to not be autistic.

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Cred said:

Non autostic people do all the steps of socializing completely automatic without even thinking a single thought in the process. That's what it means to not be autistic.

To me this seems kind of autistic, because it's like a machine would operate, which seems lower consciousness.  I don't know what autism means, but I assume it connotes a development disorder to some degree. 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Joshe said:

Can ChatGPT go fuck itself? Thank you.

[Cred]

8 hours ago, Alexop said:

True. Especially in a pussified/woke social group, you need to be careful of being too authentic as an ND. 

Sorry that I'm bashing you so much in particular my guy but did I get that right that you just complained about woke people and political correctness?

Dude I hate to have to break it to you but you are majorely shooting yourself in the foot here. Woke people are the only people who accept you for who you are lmao.

[Joshe]

44 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

To me this seems kind of autistic, because it's like a machine would operate, which seems lower consciousness.  I don't know what autism means, but I assume it connotes a development disorder to some degree. 

It's not necessarily a disorder. I'm autistic but do not think I have a disorder. And I would rather be my flavor of autistic than NT. There's a degree of giftedness that often accompanies ND. It can be debilitating for some but for many, it gives them an edge, and they wouldn't have it any other way. There are pros and cons. 

[Carl-Richard]

@Cred @Joshe

What should a ND person do? What they want to do? Ok. What if they want to listen to Leo Gura? What if they feel it resonates? Then you come with your "neurodivergent-neurotypical" framework and try to thread it over their head, just like a good neurotypical would with their externally derived social standards. To truly honor the individual means to honor the individual, not necessarily put them in a box (although they can put themselves in that box if they want to, but then remember that it's just a box and that they are an individual).

I'm not just throwing out a "it's more complicated than that, labels are just labels" as a platitude. It has real implications for how you act. Take someone like myself. I've jokingly referred to myself as "neurodivergent" (in my own mind) because I am a bit "out there" in some ways but I can also go well with people, I can play with external social standards.

And I can look back and remember specific changes I made or insights I had about how socialization works in an "intellectual way", that made me alter my behavior outside what was merely spontaneous and impulsive. But that's about growing up, about seeing yourself from a different perspective, of putting attention outside yourself, of developing self-awareness, of not just merely acting on your impulses but what you think is "right" morally, ethically.

Criminals, psychopaths, children, act in a more unrestrained way, they have less cognitive control. They can be less insightful, empathic, caring, more self-focused. Growing up tends to make you more attuned to others, and you will also have the cognitive faculties to use your intellectual mind to assist in this. There is nothing necessarily "special" about this.

Yes, some have an intense tendency towards intellectualization, systematization, it's the way they interact with the world primarily, they have less intuitive cognitive functions, less ability to just tune in and vibe. Then address that in the way you see fit: pick the activities you enjoy, or try to grow your weaknesses, it's up to you how much of either you want to do.

I think Leo Gura is quite aware of his "neuro-non-typicalness". He says it all the time: "I suck at working with other people, I'm not a team player" is a recent quote (paraphrasing). He says constantly "nobody cares about truth, they only care about what is socially expedient" (paraphrashing again). He also likes to hammer in the point on "it's genetic", which is a direct nod to the neurodivergent "it's ingrained" philosophy (I believe there will be a video on that soon; the role of genetics).

Could he be more accommodating to the fact that people are different and that they should go by what is suitable for them? I mean, really? His main "product" is his life purpose course which is about finding out "your" life purpose, not what somebody else has told you is good or valuable. What you think. Maybe for some people they don't have to even think about what their life purpose should be because it's so obvious what is valueable for them. But some don't, and they can still feel like piranhas in the normal world.

Maybe the particular culture around "neurodivergent-neurotypical" terminology has valueable insights, maybe you can share those here. But it's a hard sell that you are bringing something essentially new; maybe a different way of putting things and maybe some original insights here and there, but nothing categorically groundbreaking.

Edited 1 hour ago by Carl-Richard

[theleelajoker]

6 hours ago, Joshe said:

Me: What he pointed out is trivial to me. 

You: Gloss over the potentially devastating point about seeing distinctions as useless abstractions. 

You're allergic to distinctions that you think involve "identity". But notice how you're fine with other distinctions. 

I can hold distinctions about people separate from identity, so it's not a problem for me, but this rubs you the wrong way. See our conversation from several months ago about the attractiveness scale from 1-10. Whether you like it or not, these distinctions exist. It is possible to hold them without ego-interference.

Trying to ignore the distinction that one thing is more beautiful than another thing is to deny reality. It is possible to notice/accept the distinction without an unhealthy response to it. 

One thing is to tie your identity to these language labels, the other is to mistake your world for reality, the map for the territory.

Categories can be useful - fire is hot, fire burns, don't touch fire. 

In terms of dealing with people, and other life situations, it is my experience that it limits your experience, typically keeps you stuck in the mental realm. 

You seem that point as trivial. I say read the books I mentioned. I say look at your last 1,5, 10 years of your life. Check all your mental models. How many of them have changed? How you think you'll look back at this ND discussion and your current model of "people" in 3,6, 12 months?

 

Edited 35 minutes ago by theleelajoker

[theleelajoker]

6 hours ago, Xonas Pitfall said:

I’m uniquely unique. I’m so unique that I’m special in my own way, but I also recognize that everyone else is special and unique too. I’m uniquely unique in a way that makes me special, but the kind of special that only works if everyone else is also special, which means my uniqueness depends on your uniqueness, which then loops back and confirms mine again. I’m so uniquely unique that I have to acknowledge everyone else’s uniqueness just to keep mine functioning properly. That makes me special, but only in a very normal way, the most average kind of special possible, like a perfectly balanced human being with an average IQ and an unremarkable label that I don’t use because labels would interrupt the loop.

I don’t divide people into neurotypical or neurodivergent, because that would make things asymmetrical, and my uniqueness requires symmetry. So instead I remain normal, which is its own special category of unique, which brings us back to the beginning, where I am uniquely unique again, but only because everyone else is too. I am special 

Tell me two "things" or "people" or "experiences" that are exactly the same.

[Cred]

2 hours ago, lostingenosmaze said:

Thread theme:

On the nose. Thank you for that ahaahhaaksdkaahks

[Joshe]

I tried to organize some of my notes from the rabbit hole about 3 months back. 

Level 1 Autism requires some support, level 2 requires substantial support, and level 3 requires very substantial support. This list mostly describes level 1 and severity can vary and not all traits are universal. 

Diagnosis & Demographics

• Men are diagnosed 3-4x higher than females
• Females mask more effectively than males
• Many autistic people get diagnosed with ADHD first
• Autism runs in families and is often multi-generational
  • Not uncommon to have multiple siblings, cousins, aunts, and uncles all autistic
  • Often undiagnosed across generations
  • Ever wondered what was wrong with your family? lol

Social Patterns

General Tendencies

• Comfortable with isolation
• Preferring not to talk unless necessary
• One or two people as entire social world
• Hyper-focused once latched onto something

Autistic-to-Autistic Connection

• Autistic people often recognize and gravitate toward each other
• Even without knowing you're both autistic, there's often an unspoken "getting it"
• Understanding of social exhaustion
• Direct communication styles match
• Less exhausting social interaction
• Don't have to mask as much—less judgment about "weird" behaviors or interests
• Similar conversational patterns (info-dumping, special interests)
• Neurotypical relationships often require constant translation and masking
• Autistic people do tend to partner with other autistic people at higher rates than chance

Special Interests

• Autistic people often have a "special interest" they are highly competent in
• Can present as obsessive pattern recognition and mastery
• Deep, intense focus on specific topics
• Can talk extensively about interest
• More intense than typical "hobbies"
• Self-teaching through obsessive focus
• "Geeking on" specific topics

Sensory Processing

The Underlying Mechanism

• The autistic nervous system processes sensory input differently—often more intensely
• Bright lights, background noise, textures, smells all require active filtering
• This happens constantly and unconsciously drains energy

Sensory Overload Examples

• Discomfort with unexpected physical contact
• Clothing tags, seams, certain fabrics unbearable
• Can't stand certain textures against skin
• Light touch more irritating than firm pressure
• Loud commercials unbearable
• Background noise draining
• Bright lights uncomfortable
• Need for dim, quiet environments
• Bothered by chewing/breathing sounds from others
• Can't filter out background conversations—hears everything equally
• Sudden sounds (doors slamming, dogs barking) physically jarring

Self-Soothing & Stimming

• Listening to the same song on repeat (sometimes for hours/days)
• Repeating words, phrases, or sounds (echolalia)
• Rewatching the same movies/shows repeatedly
• Cracking knuckles or joints
• Running mental loops (replaying conversations, scenarios)
• Organizing/categorizing as a calming activity
• Info-dumping (talking about special interest is regulating)
• Often self-medicates to soothe nervous system
• Hand rubbing
• Knee bouncingFoot shaking
• Fidgeting
• Pacing
• Humming
• Finger wiggling
• Rocking

Executive Function & Task Initiation

Why "Simple" Tasks Are Hard

• Requires constant mental energy to self-initiate tasks
• Can do complex things BUT struggle with "simple" things
• Starting a task actually involves multiple processes:
  • Recognize it needs to be done
  • Shift attention from current focus
  • Plan the sequence of steps
  • Overcome inertia to begin
  • Monitor progress and stay on track
• Weaker Automaticity
  • Weaker habit formation: The brain doesn't create automatic "if-then" connections as easily ("if it's 8am, then make coffee")
  • Every time feels like the first time: Tasks don't become automatic through repetition as readily
  • Manual override required: What happens automatically for others requires conscious, deliberate thought each time
• Time Perception
  • Difficulty perceiving the passage of time accurately
  • "Just five more minutes" turns into an hour
  • May hyperfocus on something and completely lose track of time

Routine & Flexibility

• Self-imposed schedules require constant self-monitoring and discipline. (Level 1 autistics typically have enough executive function and self-awareness to create schedules and know they need structure, but not enough automaticity for those schedules to run themselves.)
• What was manageable yesterday might be overwhelming today
• If one thing goes off schedule, the whole day can feel derailed
• Difficulty improvising or adjusting when unexpected things happen
• Rigid thinking can make it hard to restart a routine once it's disrupted
• Complete shutdown when facing unfamiliar situations

Context Switching & Transitions

• Moving from one activity to another requires "resetting" the brain
• Autistic brains often excel at deep focus but struggle with transitions
• Each task switch depletes mental resources more rapidly
• High cost to transition between activities
• Difficulty shifting attention
• Need time between different tasks

Energy & Burnout

Unpredictable Energy

• Fluctuating daily capacity
• Good days vs. bad days with no clear pattern

The Burnout Cycle

• Intense focus → depletion → shutdown
• Need significant recovery time
• Can't "just push through"
• Physical/emotional collapse from prolonged stress

Shutdown Responses

• Going silent, non-responsive
• Complete inability to engage
• Not just tired—system offline
• Need to withdraw completely

Project Abandonment Pattern

• Intense 3-5 day focus, then can't return
• Many unfinished projects
• Difficulty restarting after breaks

Masking & Compensating

• Monitoring their own behavior to appear "normal"
• Suppressing stims (self-soothing repetitive behaviors like bouncing the knee)
• Scripting and rehearsing conversations
• Managing facial expressions and tone of voice manually

Cognitive Styles

• Concrete vs. abstract thinking:
  • High-IQ autistic: strong abstract reasoning
  • Average/below-average IQ autistic: concrete, literal
  • Can be either—but thought process is detail-oriented
• Metacognition varies widely between autistic individuals

Work & Achievement

Career Patterns

• Staying in same role for decades
• Solo work preference
• Struggle with workplace social demands
• Underemployment despite intelligence
• Frequent job changes OR extreme job stability

The "Squandered Potential" Narrative

• High intelligence + poor achievement
• "Gifted kid" who "didn't live up to potential"
• Teachers noticing mismatch between ability and output

[Cred]

15 hours ago, Cred said:

The damning thing is that Actualized.org still does not help you to fix your life

I feel like some of y'all might have taken this sentence too literally (taking things very literally and not being able to pick up on rhetoric devices such as hyperbole, sarcasm etc. is again an autistic trait (because of course it is lol)). This is hyperbole. Of course, Actualized.org is helpful. But it does not reach the root of your material Problems, which again is ND. It is also a rhetorical reference to this post:

 

[CARDOZZO]

I don't know. People want to have some psychological condition to feel special.

Whatever shit that is wrong on your life is because you have ADHD or whatever.