Have Any of You Questioned Whether Spiral Dynamics Are Actually Truthful?

[Basman]

It's a common but mistaken criticism of spiral dynamics that it is about superiority. It's just a map of cultural and moral development. It's descriptive, not judgemental. 

[Basman]

Higher stages are functionally superior in terms of being effective societies. The higher the stage, the more technology and resources a society has, both in terms of raw materials and institutionally (knowledge, skilled workers, etc.) Something like Sillicone Valley is an indispensible resource for technological innovation unique to stage orange development. Lower stages can't create a resource like sillicone valley or NASA. Actualized is a resource that couldn't happen in a less developed country. 

Case in point, would you rather live in Norway or Sudan?

[AerisVahnEphelia]

Meta level of self awareness are real, stages or not stages, that's up to you to project.

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Basman said:

Case in point, would you rather live in Norway or Sudan?

Thought you said "Norway or Sweden" and I was about to shout "NORWAY!" and loudly represent my side of the eternal national feud.

Edited Saturday at 06:29 AM by Carl-Richard

[Daniel Balan]

4 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You could've also learned about Jesus and had a similar conversion. Any framework that puts degenerate behavior lower than an alternative could suffice.

This is bullshit on so many levels. I was born a orthodox Christian and all those friends were also Christians. I attended church 20 years straight every time church attendance was required, I was indoctrinated into that shit since I could barely speak as an infant, those hooligan friends of mine were the same. Christianity is what causes devils, what creates the kind of evil that lead to the death of these former friends. The moment I realized how vile these Christians are, that was the moment I dropped religion forever. I abhor religion and Christianity with a passion. If devil exists he was in fact the one who created Christianity. Precisely the idoctrination and the bacwardness of religion is what causes people to become devils. 

[Daniel Balan]

2 hours ago, Basman said:

It's a common but mistaken criticism of spiral dynamics that it is about superiority. It's just a map of cultural and moral development. It's descriptive, not judgemental. 

Actually I believe that stages are superior to other stages literraly. By superior I mean more evolved and actually better on any metric. Green is better than  Orange on every metric and Orange is better than blue on every metric and blue is better than red on every metric. 

If some stages aren't better than others, Imagine you get to choose your parents before you were born, would you like to be born to stage blue evangelical parents that will indoctrinate you with backward bullshit since day 1 or would you like to be born to scientist parents? To me the choice is a no brainer.

Nazi Germany(red) is a worse state than 2025 Poland(blue) and Poland is a worse state than 2025 Germany(Orange/green) and 2025 Germany is a worse state than 2025 Norway/Finland/Sweeden( Green/Yellow). Of course if you are a stage blue thief you would consider Scandinavia hell, but if you are a highly developed person you would see Scandinavia as a little place of heaven on earth.

 

[Leo Gura]

SD is amazingly accurate for Tier 1 stages. With Tier 2 its accuracy nosedives. I basically only use it for Tier 1. Beyond that I drop it.

[How to be wise]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

SD is amazingly accurate for Tier 1 stages. With Tier 2 its accuracy nosedives. I basically only use it for Tier 1. Beyond that I drop it.

Didn’t you make Tier 2 videos using their model?

[Basman]

3 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

Actually I believe that stages are superior to other stages literraly. By superior I mean more evolved and actually better on any metric. Green is better than  Orange on every metric and Orange is better than blue on every metric and blue is better than red on every metric. 

If some stages aren't better than others, Imagine you get to choose your parents before you were born, would you like to be born to stage blue evangelical parents that will indoctrinate you with backward bullshit since day 1 or would you like to be born to scientist parents? To me the choice is a no brainer.

Nazi Germany(red) is a worse state than 2025 Poland(blue) and Poland is a worse state than 2025 Germany(Orange/green) and 2025 Germany is a worse state than 2025 Norway/Finland/Sweeden( Green/Yellow). Of course if you are a stage blue thief you would consider Scandinavia hell, but if you are a highly developed person you would see Scandinavia as a little place of heaven on earth.

Each stage builds on each other like a flight of stairs. You miss one step and your staircase lacks the structural integrity to take you to heaven. 

[Daniel Balan]

11 minutes ago, Basman said:

Each stage builds on each other like a flight of stairs. You miss one step and your staircase lacks the structural integrity to take you to heaven. 

In case of spiral dynamics you can't miss a step. There is no way for a human to evolve into orange without first moving through blue. Each huamn is born in a culture of a certain stage. Not everyone starts at the same stage. I started my life in a red/blue household, my friends started their life in almost totally red households, thats why even though we all were fundamentalist christians, my grandparents that raised me were staunchly against theft and drugs and thats why I didn't engage in purely red activities. Some people in Afghanistan start life at purple. In order for them to reach green they will need to master the survival world of dog eat dog of red, to be tammed by the religion and order and morality of blue, to drop their religion while keeping the morality and becoming more left brained in orange, and then to become more calm, loving and accepting in green. You can't jump from blue to green even if you wanted to, you can't, you will demonize green with a passion, you need to first drop your demonizations in orange to then embracing the wokeness of green.

[Ulax]

I guess good thing to do is to question the science that underlies Spiral dynamics. 

[Ulax]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

SD is amazingly accurate for Tier 1 stages. With Tier 2 its accuracy nosedives. I basically only use it for Tier 1. Beyond that I drop it.

What do you think is a good model for tier 2? 

[Davino]

SD is better for collective trends. Susan's model is better for individual development.

Edited Saturday at 12:44 PM by Davino

[SimpleGuy]

3 hours ago, How to be wise said:

Didn’t you make Tier 2 videos using their model?

You like to catch Leo on his deeds so much  You`re like wizard of corruption but only for Leo

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Daniel Balan said:

This is bullshit on so many levels. I was born a orthodox Christian and all those friends were also Christians. I attended church 20 years straight every time church attendance was required, I was indoctrinated into that shit since I could barely speak as an infant, those hooligan friends of mine were the same. Christianity is what causes devils, what creates the kind of evil that lead to the death of these former friends. The moment I realized how vile these Christians are, that was the moment I dropped religion forever. I abhor religion and Christianity with a passion. If devil exists he was in fact the one who created Christianity. Precisely the idoctrination and the bacwardness of religion is what causes people to become devils. 

If you were born into a SD indoctrination, it's likely you could've reacted the same to it. Indoctrination doesn't work if it doesn't resonate with your wants (or SD stage), unless you play the repression/acting game (pretending that you're something you're not, which many people do with all kinds of things). If you're a stage Red kid, of course Christianity doesn't really work on you, so you can become averse to it. But if you revisit it later with an open mind, putting aside your previous aversion, it would be more likely to resonate. Christianity resonates more with me now than it ever did as a kid (now, that doesn't mean I am a "Christian").

Edited Saturday at 03:19 PM by Carl-Richard

[Daniel Balan]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you were born into a SD indoctrination, it's likely you could've reacted the same to it. Indoctrination doesn't work if it doesn't resonate with your wants (or SD stage), unless you play the repression/acting game (pretending that you're something you're not, which many people do with all kinds of things). If you're a stage Red kid, of course Christianity doesn't really work on you, so you can become averse to it. But if you revisit it later with an open mind, putting aside your previous aversion, it would be more likely to resonate. Christianity resonates more with me now than it ever did as a kid (now, that doesn't mean I am a "Christian").

You don't understand, I loved the indoctrination, I went to church and prayed on my own volition, no one forced me for 20 years to do that, and my hooligan friends did the same, I was only indoctrinated and forced into it just in early childhood, after that I was religious because I wanted to be, not because someone threatened me with punishment, that happened only up until 10 years old. Being religious and stage red is not something that contradicts itself, look at Russia, Iran and the middle east, religion doesn't equate with stage blue. Here everyone goes to church and I was a staunch religious person. Up until I realized how backward and evil the whole thing is, that religion is only a tool used to enhance survival. Without religion you can't even find work here, let alone start a business, here to start a business you would need to be the most religious person in the village so that the priests send other Christians to your business as customers, without that no one would buy anything from you, without religion you'd have 0 clients, no matter how good your products are, if you are not religious the priests will demonize you and tell to the whole community that you are an agent of the devil and what your business produces is the work of the devil. 

Also the most religious persons I met beat the shit out of their children in order to force them to memorize the bible, they beat their children like the gypsys beat their horses if they catch their children masturbating or watching porn. The whole thing has nothing to do with spirituality, religion is the anti-thesis of spirituality. 

Regarding spiral dynamics indoctrination, if that would be the case I'd be now Einstein, I've learned tremendously from spiral dynamics by just dedicating like 70 hours per total to it, yet I was left in backwardness and mental retardation after 20 years of organized religion. 

Edited Saturday at 03:45 PM by Daniel Balan

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Ulax said:

What do you think is a good model for tier 2? 

A "good" model for Tier 2 will realistically not be based on the same empirical evidence as Tier 1 (Graves' survey methodology), because as those stages are exceedingly rare, you would need to survey an astronomical amount of people to get any resemblance of statistical significance between different stages (and you would need to survey other people than mainly young college students). Graves himself treated the equivalent of Turquoise as speculative. Maybe if somebody did a huge scale online survey (>100k people and of roughly all ages), you could start picking things apart. But of course, this still assumes mainly Western/modernised cultures. Until then, you would have to rely on dubious theoretical speculations from Tier 2 people.

Edited Saturday at 04:35 PM by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, Daniel Balan said:

You don't understand, I loved the indoctrination, I went to church and prayed on my own volition, no one forced me for 20 years to do that, and my hooligan friends did the same, I was only indoctrinated and forced into it just in early childhood, after that I was religious because I wanted to be, not because someone threatened me with punishment, that happened only up until 10 years old. Being religious and stage red is not something that contradicts itself, look at Russia, Iran and the middle east, religion doesn't equate with stage blue. Here everyone goes to church and I was a staunch religious person. Up until I realized how backward and evil the whole thing is, that religion is only a tool used to enhance survival. Without religion you can't even find work here, let alone start a business, here to start a business you would need to be the most religious person in the village so that the priests send other Christians to your business as customers, without that no one would buy anything from you, without religion you'd have 0 clients, no matter how good your products are, if you are not religious the priests will demonize you and tell to the whole community that you are an agent of the devil and what your business produces is the work of the devil. 

Also the most religious persons I met beat the shit out of their children in order to force them to memorize the bible, they beat their children like the gypsys beat their horses if they catch their children masturbating or watching porn. The whole thing has nothing to do with spirituality, religion is the anti-thesis of spirituality. 

Regarding spiral dynamics indoctrination, if that would be the case I'd be now Einstein, I've learned tremendously from spiral dynamics by just dedicating like 70 hours per total to it, yet I was left in backwardness and mental retardation after 20 years of organized religion. 

When I said learning about Jesus, I meant learning about Stage Blue Jesus. The bear your cross Jesus, the love thy neighbor Jesus, the Golden Rule Jesus.

[Ulax]

24 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

A "good" model for Tier 2 will realistically not be based on the same empirical evidence as Tier 1 (Graves' survey methodology), because as those stages are exceedingly rare, you would need to survey an astronomical amount of people to get any resemblance of statistical significance between different stages (and you would need to survey other people than mainly young college students). Graves' himself treated the equivalent of Turquoise as speculative. Maybe if somebody did a huge scale online survey (>100k people and of roughly all ages), you could start picking things apart. But of course, this still assumes mainly Western/modernised cultures. Until then, you would have to rely on dubious theoretical speculations from Tier 2 people.

I get you

[How to be wise]

15 hours ago, SimpleGuy said:

You like to catch Leo on his deeds so much  You`re like wizard of corruption but only for Leo

Everything needs resistance