Why you should not do Direct cold approaches (and what to do instead!)

[Zenterus]

Strap up, this'll be a long and powerful value bomb for your game.

If you look through my post history, you will discover that after 10 years of pickup experience, I've become quite disensitised to it all and have grown to resent the entire paradigm as it is taught.

However, after looking through this sub, I've realized that while I'm doing my dramatic exit, there are so many men who are just now entering the community and may fall victim to a lot of the misguided advice that is often given in pickup forums and other sources of dating-advice-for-men information.

So, in spirit of that, I thought that I might as well do my part in making sure that the new "gamers" dont fall into the same traps that I did while I was developing in the game and maybe ensure that the future of pickup is more holistically sound in the process (hopefully - I'm only one dude in a very niche forum, afterall)

Anyway, the first topic I want to tackle is the topic of direct game and why this is not only negatively affecting your results, but also negatively affecting the women that you meet.

Before I get to my breakdown of direct game, I first have to state the following disclaimer:

This is an ADVANCED topic. Reason being that in order to get good at pickup you have to be comfortable with your sexuality and your desires as a man. That is the foundation of all of flirting and masculine confidence. If you lack that within yourself, going direct with women and experiencing the positive reactions that you get from it, as well as the results that will come as a consequence, is a great way to prove to yourself that it is okay to be a sexual being.

However, at an advanced level, direct game is simply not the optimal strategy.

Let me explain.

1. It creates a low value dynamic

This is the ideal story: Girl meets a guy by happenstance. They engage in a very fun interaction and it becomes clear to the girl that she has very good chemistry with this guy, who also seems to be pretty cool and someone who she actually respects and admires.

Additionally, she feels a certain vibe between them that is sexual/romantic in nature but isn't sure if she's reading too much into it or if she's feeling it accurately. The guy seems flirtatious with her sometimes but then also dismissive other times, which adds to this tension. As a result, she remains fully engaged into figuring out where this is headed and becomes more and more invested as time goes on.

The more they get to know each other, the more the guy moves from dismissive, playful and indifferent to more interested and genuinemy impressed by the girl. The interaction goes from light and fun to more authentic and congruent. She feels like now they're genuinely connecting and that her initial suspicions of an underlying vibe were correct. She's aroused, she's excited, she feels the tension in the air and now she's certain he feels it too as things naturally progress into more and more intimacy.

Sounds familiar? If not, then here's a hint: This is how women typically experience a natural romantic progression with a guy who they meet through their social circle – which is where the average woman typically meets the men she dates.

The problem with going direct, is that it skips a lot of steps and can create a dynamic in which the woman isn't sure about you, yet your direct statements of interest make it clear that you are absolutely sure about her. Therefore, she's still evaluating you while you're kind of already sold on her, which is low value.

One way that PUA has found to offset this is by doing push pulls; meaning showing interest and disinterest back to back over the course of an interaction. It works very well and I definitely advocate for them. However, I do believe there's a superior way to open, specifically, that emulates more of the natural progression that fits into the romantic narrative stated above.

Emphasis: USE PUSH PULLS. They work great. This thread is mostly focused on Opening.

2. The girl has to make a decision with very limited information.

This is big.

Cold approach will forever be a number's game, no matter how good you get and how much you optimize it.

But direct game is the ultimate number's game because all the girl has to go off of is how you look and the confidence of your approach.

It's very common for guys who purely do direct game to experience 10 nos in a row before they get 1 (maybe) yes. And the funny thing is that those same 10 women who initially said 'no' to you on your approach, could've been crazy about you if you had met them in a normal social setting in which you had no romantic intentions expressed and simply got to know each other as people.

What holds guys back from realizing this is the reactions they get from direct game. If you approach a woman directly, she has an instant reaction to your boldness. She laughs, she blushes, she reacts and guys who have low self esteem or who dont have much experience with women need that positive reaction as a sign that they're doing well.

However that is a false positive and your results reflect that, if you are honest with yourself.

How much a girl laughs and is amused in the interaction has very little to do on whether or not she will want to sleep with you, date you, invest in you. All that actually matters is her perception of you and the unique chemistry and connection you share with her and if a girl rejects you within the first 5 minutes of you talking to her, you cannot establish neither of the above in a positive way.

3. Over time it can kill your reputation among women

Especially true if you live in a small city but just as valid in bigger cities as well.

The thing with cold approach pickup is that it requires a high volume of social interaction for you to get results - even if you're advanced, there will always be a numbers game element to it.

Over time - within a span of years or even months maybe - you will start encountering women who you've previously approached in the past at random locations. This could also happen in a closed environment, such as a club, where you're bound to run into the same people again (depending on where you live) either the same night or over the span of multiple nights.

Now, if you game properly, as I will explain later on, then this is perfect! You can re-approach without it being weird of awkward. However, if you're the direct burn-it-to-the-ground type of player that goes all in and shows all his cards right away, then it will result in you having an awkward reputation eventually.

Now, having a reputation isn't necessarily bad, if you know how to handle it and use it to your advantage. But I'll tell you this, for sure: Nothing turns a woman off more than when she finds out the guy who she's dating has been running around flirting and complimenting and getting rejected by the majority of women in the city.. especially when one (or a few of them) turn out to be her friends.

4. Closes the door for a more nuanced approach to game (social circle, for example)

The highest forms of game are subtle and allow you a lot of manoeuvrability.

Let's say you approach 2 really beautiful girls. Both are hot, both look good and you'd be down to actually date either one of them. But for the sake of directness you choose one of them to direct your intentions to. However, you find out that not only do you not have that much chemistry with her, but that she also has a boyfriend! On the flip side, her friend is way more interesting and engaging to talk to and she's single. What do you do?

Switch targets? You could, I've done it and had it work out. But the vast majority of the time, the girl will just feel like the backup option and reject you even though she might have been interested in you.

Alternatively, let's say that both of the women have boyfriends but they're super cool to talk to and you'd actually be down to befriend them and potentially even meet their attractive friends

By approaching them in a very direct, polarizing manner and then trying to switch to being their friend you run the risk of them perceiving you as a loser who is trying to sleaze his way into their pants through the friendzone. Again, low value.

Now don't misunderstand me; It can still work - practically anything can - but it's just way less likely.

You want to approach game in such a way that allows you to be flexible within an interaction, whether that is switching your target or the frame of the approach itself, while also maintaining a high value perception of you in the woman's eyes, and direct game isn't the optimal approach for that.

The optimal approach:

Before we get into the actual approach, let's lay down some foundational principles behind the Opening style I advocate for:

- Attraction is not a choice.

You don't have to tell a girl you like her or be overtly flirty with her for her to feel attracted to you.

If you're a cool guy, who is sexy, dominant, assertive and fun, she will get attracted to you whether you directly established that frame or not.

- Being the buyer not the seller

As established previously, the ideal story you want a woman to experience emotionally when you're interacting with her is one where she's uncertain about your interest level at first and then slowly - the more you get to know each other and the more she impresses you with her character - the more your interest grows and becomes more obvious.

That way, your interest, feels more earned and special.

- It just happened

Romance should feel spontaneous, genuine, authentic and fateful. No woman likes the idea that her was man sitting at home plotting, strategizing and pracising his approach for weeks and months on various women and she just happened to be the one who "fell for it."

Women want to feel like things just naturally came about and therefore your opening style should reflect this fantasy.

Now, one last point before I tell you the best way to approach.

I must emphasize that this post is about OPENERS.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't flirt at all or never convey your sexuality to the woman.

What I am saying is that your sexuality and intention should be gradually revealed - mostly through the vibe but also through the subtlety and implication of your verbals, which is a topic for a different day.

With those principles in mind, the best way to approach is indirect direct.

What does indirect direct mean?

It means you approach from an indirect high value frame while still maintaining your dominance and "potential suitor" vibe.

This means you should still hold strong eye contact, speak with authority and breaking rapport tonality, be expressive, be leading, etc etc. But open the interaction in such a way that doesn't immediately give away your intentions. 

This does require some creativity on your part, but lucky for you I am feeling generous, so here are some mental frames you could embody on your approach:

[] "I'm already having fun and loving life and here I am sharing it with you, just cause I felt like it."

The frame speaks for itself, but it's one predicated on you living a full life, having fun, doing cool things and on your way to live this cool llife of yours and you just felt like sharing some energy with a stranger.

I discovered this years ago when I noticed that whenever I was travelling, going to a cool ass event or coming from a badass hangout with friends, my approaches would go so much better because I would approach from a completely different frame.

Like, I'd be hanging out with friends shooting the shit, making inside jokes and such and on my way home I would just approach a girl in a very self amusing way by using one of the inside jokes I had with my friends earlier that day as an opener.

The girl would have no context for the joke and wouldn't get it, but the vibe did the talking.

So, how does that look like in practice?

One way you can actualize this frame is either by actually, you know, living a dope ass life or by doing warm up approaches with the sole intention of just being silly and having fun with the women you talk to rather than getting a result. That will eventually pop you in the zone which will make the above frame very congruent.

As a training wheel for this, try approaching a girl from the frame that she approached you and you're flattered but not really interested.

For example, "Hey excuse me. Look, I just wanted to say that I appreciate the confidence, really, Im super flattered! But I'm not looking for anything right now. You seem like a really cool girl, though. We could totally be friends. Hope you dont take it personal!"

And continue the interaction as normal.

Just for funzies. See what happens.

[] "I'm on my way somewhere, living my life, but I'm curious about something, real quick."

This is another great high value frame and, compared to the first one, its more easy to apply.

It is self explanatory, instead of going direct, you approach from a place of curiosity.

"Hey, excuse me. Im on my way to [whatever] but you look very creative and I've been meaning to meet more like minded people. Are you an artist by any chance?"

Very simple.

Of course, modify it to fit your personality and genuine interests but you can clearly see how this type of approach not only conveys your unique value system but also can potentially spark a more genuine interaction from a place of common ground interests.

Of course, to reiterate, you do have to gradually reveal your sexual interest in her through your vibe, eye contact, tone of voice, dominance, etc. Don't get stuck on the curiosity frame without switching to a more personal "I want to meet you" type of dynamic after establishing some basic rapport.

[] Teasing

Another great, playful way to open that sets up a very flirtatious dynamic without being explicit and direct about it.

Again, the frame you should be coming from is that you're already living your life and she just caught your attention by accident after catching her doing something silly or ridiculous.

I'll give you some examples below off the top of my head, but keep in mind that these should be said playfully and with positive energy:

1) You see a girl wearing all black.

"Sorry, I have to say.. you got that emo look down! Haven't seen that since the early 2000s, takes me back to the good old days. What's your band's name?"

2) You see a girl walking down the street with a very serious expression on her face.

"Excuse me.. you look like you're on your way to beat someone up and I'm here for it. Who is getting jumped? I'm ready, let's go!"

3) A girl is out with 2 of her friends who are currently talking among themselves without her

"Hey you.. *sigh* I totally feel you right now. Being the third wheel sucks. I know that feeling. Fuck your friends, we'll have a secret conversation of our own here and get them jealous ;)"

The above are merely a few of infinite examples of various frames you could embody and their applications.

You could also approach by asking for directions or to share a random experience that you just had which you just had to share with someone, or to ask for an opinion, etc.

As long as the opener falls under the principles and theory laid out here, it will successfully set the correct dynamic for a proper seduction while side-stepping all the negative aspects of the direct approach.

Now, let me be abundantly clear: Direct game still works. Especially if you're creative with it instead of going out with these lame, cliche, low effort openers such as "you're beautiful" or "you're cute."

What I'm saying here is that the direct approach just isn't optimal long term and will stagnate your potential results, if that's the only way you know how to approach women.

Hope this was helpful.

[Hezbollah]

Will "I'd like to deeply sniff your asshole" work as a indirect direct opener?

[Zenterus]

25 minutes ago, Hezbollah said:

Will "I'd like to deeply sniff your asshole" work as a indirect direct opener?

Great question! Remember, subtlety is key. I would advice that you pretend to tie your shoes and get up right when she walks by so that her booty grazes your nose and open with "wow, that's quite the refreshing breeze. I wonder where that came from. Oh hey there!" 

 

Field tested advice right there

[enchanted]

Great advice. I hope that helps someone too.

My advice isuch simpler: just be a nice a person and if you start chatting with a similarily nice person just ask them to the movies or something on the weekend.

[Zenterus]

18 minutes ago, enchanted said:

Great advice. I hope that helps someone too.

My advice isuch simpler: just be a nice a person and if you start chatting with a similarily nice person just ask them to the movies or something on the weekend.

Thank you.

Personally, I'm not a fan of movie dates (or any kind of date where you're watching something such as stand up, a live band, etc) as you can't really converse with your person of interest.

[aurum]

@Zenterus good stuff.

There are definitely tradeoffs to being direct. And directness is definitely a spectrum, not a binary.

Some situations require more directness, some less. You should be able to hit the gas and the brakes just as easily.

[nhoktinvt]

Quote

The more they get to know each other, the more the guy moves from dismissive, playful and indifferent to more interested and genuinemy impressed by the girl. The interaction goes from light and fun to more authentic and congruent. She feels like now they're genuinely connecting and that her initial suspicions of an underlying vibe were correct. She's aroused, she's excited, she feels the tension in the air and now she's certain he feels it too as things naturally progress into more and more intimacy.

isnt this the nice guy game, that takes more time to get her attracted, or would you say that the dating scene changed and you indeed need more time to get her attraced rather than the,player game that get her attracted in 5 minutes

[Elliott]

This is how girls approach guys. I'm not criticizing it, I agree with it. Just thought i'd point it out for non-game guys that don't notice how girls try to pick them up.

[enchanted]

9 hours ago, Zenterus said:

Thank you.

Personally, I'm not a fan of movie dates (or any kind of date where you're watching something such as stand up, a live band, etc) as you can't really converse with your person of interest.

True. any date idea works the point is just be nice and prospects come pouring in (at least in my experience). movies can be good for really awkward people and they can talk after or before movie. 

[Leo Gura]

Obviously a warm approach is better than a cold approach. The problem is that it's hard to know many women worth warm approaching.

It's like saying: it is easier to sell to people you know than to strangers. Yeah. But nobody knows enough people to make a career out of it.

It's especially hard to know enough very hot girls. Most very hot girs will be strangers to you unless you got some very unique situation going in your favor.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Zenterus]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Obviously a warm approach is better than a cold approach. The problem is that it's hard to know many women worth warm approaching.

It's like saying: it is easier to sell to people you know than to strangers. Yeah. But nobody knows enough people to make a career out of it.

It's especially hard to know enough very hot girls. Most very hot girs will be strangers to you unless you got some very unique situation going in your favor.

You may want to actually read the post, cause nowhere in it did I advocate warm approaches or not cold approaching at all.

This is a post specifically about the negative aspects of direct game - like approaching a woman and immediately making your intentions overtly clear from the start - and alternative ways to open interactions that negate those cons.

[Leo Gura]

Yes, I agree being less direct in your approach is more masterful. It's also much harder as a skill.

Frankly it's hard for me to do a good indirect approach. That is not authentic to introverts. It works better for extroverts who enjoy just socializing with everyone around them. That's one of the reasons extroverts are so much more successful at game.

Edited 5 hours ago by Leo Gura

[Ulax]

@Zenterus How you deal with the stress of cold approach?

That was one of my big sticking points. I could see myself progressing but my nervous system was totally haywrire from the stress.

[Miguel1]

Legit post, thanks for sharing. Great point from Leo on extroverts enjoying indirect more, and that it being more natural for them.

And yes, indirect is way harder to pull of properly, without falling into the friendzone.

That being said, there is also semi direct. And especially in day game, pulling off a proper semi direct is extremely powerful, and efficient.

[Zenterus]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, I agree being less direct in your approach is more masterful. It's also much harder as a skill.

Frankly it's hard for me to do a good indirect approach. That is not authentic to introverts. It works better for extroverts who enjoy just socializing with everyone around them. That's one of the reasons extroverts are so much more successful at game.

It does take more skill for sure, which is why I stated above that this is a more advanced perspective on game.

However as an introvert myself, I highly disagree that this won't work for introverts.

This approach requires creativity and a more laid back vibe, which introverts are more prone to have.

It is also predicated on the fact that you're a man who takes care of himself as to have a healthy libido, a good vibe and a strong grounded masculine presence. 

If a man is out here watching porn everyday, eating like shit, not working out then yes, this definitely wont work for you cause this approach does depend on who you are as a masculine entity rather than gimmicks and lines.

Edited 39 minutes ago by Zenterus

[Zenterus]

2 hours ago, Ulax said:

@Zenterus How you deal with the stress of cold approach?

That was one of my big sticking points. I could see myself progressing but my nervous system was totally haywrire from the stress.

The more you do it the better, cause you get disensitised to it. 

Schedule a day where you will do 30 approaches back to back, just for the fuck of it. Doesnt matter if you're attracted to them, just do it to get into a flow.

Also, it could be that you're viewing this as an obligation or work rather than a fun time. If you can reframe your approaches as you just having fun and just playing around then it wont be as nerve wracking.

It could help to meditate and visualize yourself approaching women from a relaxed, fun, value giving place in which you imagine the woman loving you and responding well to you, until you reframe the whole ordeal in your mind.

Another common reason that you might get stressed is because you feel like approaching women is somehow weird and thus are afraid of being judged by people around you.

Here are my thoughts on those:

1 - As for cold approach being weird, I would recommend that you go to a night club for 2 consecutive days in a row and dont approach anyone. Just watch. What you will observe, if you're sharp enough, is that men are approaching women, women are giving out signals to men, people are flirting, people are hooking up, people are going home together. 

Women want to meet a cool guy and men want to meet a cool girl. Nothing wrong with that. You're not weird for going after women you find attractive. In fact, its the most natural thing. If most guys had the confidence to approach women in the day time or at random locations sober, men would be doing that en mass. 

In other words, just by the fact that you're willing to do it makes you a catch by default.

2 - As for people's judgement of you, I'll put it like this: It doesnt matter. People dont care as much as you think they do, first of all, and very often their judgements of you are more about them than you.

When I see a guy approaching a woman, it boosts my respect for him, but then when some incel loser sees the same event take place he is hating. 

Who's right? Who knows. Doesn't matter. 

Think about all the times you saw people do weird things in public that make them stood out. So you remember their face? Would you be able to recognize them if they were standing in front of you in the starbucks line?

Probably not.

I once saw a guy in a crazy attire filming a music video in the middle of city square with loud music blasting. 

Everyone was looking at him. Judging him, humoring him.

He didnt give a fuck. 

He's living his life.

And honestly, if that same guy walked past me on the street today, i wouldn't even notice.

People are living their own lives. No one really cares what you do, so you do you.